Hosted by Jeff Walter, Founder and CEO of LatitudeLearning
Most organizations invest heavily in helping employees perform their jobs. They provide onboarding programs, technical training, leadership development initiatives, mentorship opportunities, and professional development resources designed to help people grow and succeed. Yet despite those investments, many organizations continue to face persistent challenges around employee engagement, retention, workforce readiness, and long-term development.
At the same time, employees are navigating careers that look very different from those of previous generations. Career paths are less predictable. Technology continues to reshape industries. Artificial intelligence is creating new opportunities while also introducing uncertainty about the future of work. Professionals frequently find themselves asking questions that were far less common even a decade ago. How do I stay relevant? What skills should I be developing? How do I know whether I am moving in the right direction?
These questions form the foundation of Working to Winning: The Power of Knowing What Matters, a forthcoming book co-authored by Thomas Powner of Career Thinker and Ellen Steverson of StartingBlock Career Services. In this Training Impact Podcast conversation, they share the experiences, observations, and ideas that inspired the book and explain why they believe career management deserves a much larger role in both individual and organizational success.
Their message is not simply about helping people find jobs or earn promotions. It is about helping people take ownership of their careers while encouraging organizations to become active participants in that process.
One of the most engaging aspects of the conversation is learning how the book came together.
Both authors arrived at the project through years of working directly with people navigating career decisions. Powner’s work with Career Thinker exposed him to professionals at critical moments in their careers. Some were searching for new opportunities. Others were navigating transitions, layoffs, or organizational change. Many were accomplished professionals who simply felt uncertain about what should come next.
Steverson encountered similar situations through her work in career services, workforce development, executive recruiting, and professional coaching. Whether helping students enter the workforce or supporting experienced professionals through major transitions, she repeatedly saw talented individuals struggling with questions about direction, growth, and opportunity.
Over time, both began noticing a common pattern. People spent enormous amounts of time managing their jobs but comparatively little time managing their careers.
They focused on immediate responsibilities, short-term goals, and current challenges without stepping back to consider the broader journey they were trying to create. Organizations often contributed to this problem by concentrating heavily on performance management and job development while spending far less time helping employees think strategically about their careers.
Those observations eventually became the foundation for Working to Winning.
A central concept throughout the book and the conversation is a simple phrase that carries significant meaning: One Life, One Career.
The idea challenges the way many people think about professional growth.
Most professionals naturally divide their careers into separate jobs, employers, promotions, and transitions. They think about where they worked, what title they held, and what happened next. Career decisions often become focused on individual opportunities rather than the larger journey.
Powner and Steverson encourage a different perspective.
While people may have multiple jobs, multiple employers, and even multiple professions throughout their lives, they still have one career. Every experience contributes to that larger story. Every project, challenge, relationship, success, and setback becomes part of a continuous process of growth.
Viewing careers this way changes how people evaluate opportunities. Instead of asking whether a role is simply a promotion or a lateral move, they begin asking how it contributes to their development. They start focusing on capability building, learning, and long-term growth rather than short-term advancement alone.
For organizations, this perspective is equally valuable. Employees are not merely filling positions. They are building careers. Organizations that recognize this reality are often better positioned to engage, develop, and retain talent.
One of the most thought-provoking parts of the discussion involves the distinction between career management and career development.
Most organizations are familiar with career development. Employees attend training programs, complete certifications, participate in leadership development initiatives, and build new skills. These activities remain important.
However, the authors argue that career development alone does not fully address the realities of today’s workforce.
Career development often assumes a relatively predictable progression. Employees gain expertise, earn promotions, and advance through a structured hierarchy.
Modern careers rarely work that way.
People move across departments, industries, and disciplines. They acquire skills that were never part of their original role. Career paths increasingly resemble winding roads rather than straight ladders.
Career management acknowledges this reality. It focuses on helping individuals navigate change, adapt to evolving circumstances, make informed decisions, and continuously evaluate opportunities throughout their professional lives.
Rather than asking how someone can advance within a single role, career management asks how they can build a meaningful and resilient career over time.
One of the strongest themes throughout the conversation centers on business fluency.
According to Steverson, many employees understand how to perform their jobs but struggle to understand how their work contributes to broader organizational outcomes. They know their tasks. They understand their responsibilities. Yet they often lack visibility into how their work creates value for customers, supports revenue generation, or contributes to organizational success.
This gap matters more than many organizations realize.
When employees do not understand the broader business context, they can become disconnected from the significance of their contributions. They may see their work as a collection of isolated tasks rather than part of a larger mission.
Business fluency helps bridge that gap.
It encourages employees to understand how organizations operate, how value is created, and how different functions contribute to success. When people understand the bigger picture, they often become more engaged, more motivated, and more effective.
For leaders, this serves as an important reminder that development should include more than technical skills. Helping employees understand the business itself can be one of the most valuable forms of learning.
The discussion becomes particularly relevant for learning and development professionals when the conversation turns toward continuous learning.
Powner emphasizes the importance of what he describes as learning while earning.
The idea is straightforward but powerful. Employees should never stop developing new skills, building new capabilities, and expanding their knowledge while simultaneously contributing value to their organizations.
This mindset is especially important today.
Artificial intelligence, automation, and technological innovation continue transforming how work is performed. Skills that were highly valuable only a few years ago may become less important over time, while entirely new capabilities emerge.
The organizations that thrive will be those that create cultures where learning is expected, encouraged, and supported. Likewise, the professionals who remain adaptable will be those who continuously invest in their own growth.
Learning and earning are not separate activities. They are complementary parts of long-term career success.
Perhaps the most distinctive idea presented throughout the episode is that career management should not be viewed solely as an employee responsibility.
Many career conversations focus almost entirely on individual ownership. While personal responsibility is essential, Powner and Steverson argue that organizations also play a critical role.
Employers influence career outcomes whether they intend to or not.
The opportunities they create, the conversations they encourage, the learning experiences they provide, and the visibility they offer into future possibilities all shape employee development.
Organizations that actively support career management often create stronger engagement because employees feel invested in rather than overlooked.
This does not mean employers are responsible for managing every aspect of an employee’s career. Rather, it means creating an environment where career conversations can occur openly and productively.
When employees understand opportunities and organizations understand aspirations, both sides benefit.
As the conversation progresses, the discussion naturally shifts toward the future.
Both authors acknowledge that uncertainty is now a permanent feature of modern careers. Technology will continue evolving. Industries will continue changing. New opportunities will emerge while others disappear.
The goal of career management is not to predict the future.
It is to prepare for it.
People who actively manage their careers are often better positioned to respond to change because they continuously build skills, expand relationships, develop business understanding, and remain open to new opportunities.
Organizations benefit from the same mindset. Workforce development becomes more effective when it focuses not only on current performance but also on future readiness.
This perspective makes Working to Winning particularly relevant for today’s workplace. The book provides a framework for navigating uncertainty while maintaining a focus on growth, learning, and long-term success.
By the end of the conversation, it becomes clear that Working to Winning: The Power of Knowing What Matters is about much more than career advice.
It is about helping people become more intentional about their professional lives. It is about helping organizations create environments where learning, growth, and opportunity can thrive. Most importantly, it is about recognizing that successful careers do not happen by accident.
They are built through thoughtful decisions, continuous learning, meaningful relationships, and a willingness to adapt.
Powner and Steverson make a compelling case that career management deserves a much larger role in both professional development and workforce strategy. As organizations continue navigating technological change and workforce transformation, the ability to actively manage careers may become one of the most valuable skills professionals can develop and one of the most important conversations organizations can facilitate.
To learn more about Career Thinker, visit https://www.careerthinker.com/
To learn more about StartingBlock Career Services, visit https://startingblockcs.com/
Jeff Walter (00:00)
Hi, I’m Jeff Walter and welcome back to the Training Impact Podcast, where we explore scaling performance through training infrastructure. Today’s guests are Thomas Browner of CareerThinker and Ellen Steverson of Starting Block Career Services. ⁓ Tom is the founder and CEO of CareerTinker.
A career management and recruiting firm that helps professionals navigate career transitions and take control of their futures. Tom and Ellen are also co-authors of a book that’s coming out very soon. We’re going to talk about called Working to Winning: The Power of Knowing What Matters. It’s a book designed to help people manage their one life, one career, in which they introduce Forge for Award solutions to address career gridlock. Ellen Steverson.
is the president of Starting Block Career Services. She brings a unique blend of career management, executive recruiting, and business leadership experience, helping thousands of professionals clarify what matters, communicate their value, and advance their careers. Tom and Ellen, welcome to the program.
Ellen Steverson (01:04)
Thank you.
Tom Powner (01:04)
Thanks for
thanks for having us.
Jeff Walter (01:06)
So I I’m excited about today. It’s it’s ⁓ you know, a lot of folks are probably sitting there wondering, hey, career planning and you know, managing my career. You know, usually it’s always ⁓ folks are always thinking about the employee and managing their career. but one of the things that was I found really interesting with you guys is ⁓ you look at it as a partnership and we’re gonna get into that a little bit later. but first I want to I I’m always interested in the
How’d you guys got where you got? And you know, you wrote a book. That’s no minor undertaking. So, ha Tom, what yeah, you’re both leaders of your businesses. So Tom, what what what how how did that happen? And Ellen, how did that happen? And and and why did you guys decide to write a book?
Tom Powner (01:48)
Well, if a little bit of a funny story, me and Ellen kinda come from one town in part in Long Island that we didn’t know when we met about I guess about fifteen years ago. I was I was in a corporate career. ⁓ I I came to a crossroad where I just needed to make a decision just and just do something different. And I I left corporate America and I started Career Thinker where me and my team we help people connect to next opportunities and we also do recruiting for four national companies. so I made that transition
⁓ about fifteen, sixteen years ago. I lost track of where I was going, but th that’s how I got where I am and today. And then several years ago, me and Ellen been kind of ⁓ you know, on the same path in our own businesses. And ⁓ several years ago we thought about we talked about writing a book and instead of saying tomorrow, tomorrow we did it, we set that date and what we thought would be five, six months turned out to be, you know, double that. But
That’s what it takes to get get everything we wanted out into a book.
Jeff Walter (02:44)
Yeah.
And and and and Ellen, ⁓ and ⁓ president, ⁓ how did how did you get there? What’s the business do and and and how what was your journey?
Ellen Steverson (02:55)
So my journey is I am from Long Island originally in the town over from Tom. And I have always led a life that I prioritize what matters to me, and I base my career decisions off of that. So I have done several things, including pick up my bags and move to South Carolina when I felt like I’d already lived in the Hamptons, worked in Manhattan, you know, in your early twenties, you’ve done it all. So I said, why not move? So I relocated to South Carolina and
Jeff Walter (03:18)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (03:22)
was headed out west when I decided that I met somebody that was worth having a family with and settling down. And I am a very proud household manager of, as people like to say, stay at home moms, which is not a true vocational term. So that’s why I say household manager. But I have always done
Everything with career relatedness. And when I was doing the staying home and raising my family, the school district approached me about a program and I said I’d be happy to run that and started getting involved in business programs and employability programs and getting this was back in during the recession and was getting tons of kids’ job offers. I started a five division company in the school district and and everybody was getting training from us. So that then led me to decide to open up my own business.
And I started ⁓ starting block career services, and I work with people all around the world helping them advance their careers, own their skills, and truly live a one life, one career reality principle. Because the reality of it is, is it’s not about one job. You can have as many jobs as you want, but it is about managing your career so you build the life you want. But because Tom and I are both entrepreneurs, we are very committed.
To making sure people don’t blame employers and really start to understand it’s a partnership. And that’s what made us really unite what we believe in and start talking about how we coach clients to get, you know, separately, but in the same way. One life, one career. It’s your career. Manage it, but also respect the employers. You know, don’t come in here bashing them and saying things. So again, that’s how we took the book, which is very unique because it’s a two-sided perspective.
Although it focuses on a model that helps the career the employees’ careers, it also helps the employers embrace career management to say, hey, we want to support you in this journey. Here’s a perfect tool.
Jeff Walter (05:21)
So f first off, I just wanna s state I grew up in East Meadow. So another Long Islander here. I ⁓ I I I le and I went to Binghamton undergrad, so yeah, and ⁓ and then I and then and then instead of n South Carolina, I picked up and moved to Houston. and and then kind of worked my way back to New York, had a couple of kids and
Ellen Steverson (05:27)
Okay, we’re all Long Islanders. Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Okay.
Tom Powner (05:42)
Yeah, cool.
Jeff Walter (05:47)
And then moved to Michigan. So I I just th I said two two long islanders. I’m like, you know, it’s you know, that’s awesome. You know, I just grew up on Jones Beach and you know, South Great South Base and the Hamptons and Montauk Point. I I I miss it. But anyway, that’s not what we’re talking about, but I just had to mention that. so it’s it’s interesting. ⁓
Ellen Steverson (05:48)
That’s right.
Tom Powner (05:49)
wow.
Ellen Steverson (05:53)
It’s three really, that’s great.
Tom Powner (05:55)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (05:59)
Mm, yep. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.
Tom Powner (05:59)
Same here.
Jeff Walter (06:10)
What’s interesting is say partnership and and folks might be sitting here going, What what does this have to do with the you know, the what we’re you know, we’re usually focused on channels and developing channels. And I I I think it’s and it the reason I wanted you guys on w w was twofold. One
Is ⁓ especially in in the franchise or space, you have a lot of new franchise oars. You know, the the folks that develop channels are usually manufacturers, technology companies, and franchise oars. Those are the three big folks that build large partner ecosystems. I mean there are there there are others, but those are the big you know the the big segments. And and and usually there’s a lot of dynamism in the franchise space. you know, much more than the other two spaces. And so you always have these new franchise oars that are
Ellen Steverson (06:39)
Mm.
Jeff Walter (06:51)
developing, growing. They’re growing rapidly internally, adding staff. And so and then and then the flip side you have the franchisees, many of which people usually think of the franchisees as being, you know, mom and pops or single unit operators, but more and more they’re multi-unit operators that have dozens of locations across multiple brands, yet there’s an identity there, right? That you work for that company, not the brand.
And so and turnover is very high in in in in those relative and so what I found really interesting about the partnership model.
is I I always believed as an employer that you know you and your employees you you kind of walk down life’s journey a couple of steps together and you know it and then you each go your own way at whatever time. That might be thirty years, it might be three months, right? But you’re together for a couple of steps down life’s journey. And I love your your the way you’re positioned it, Ellen. You you have one life. I always think of it as like you’re the CEO of your own life. and and so how do you want to live your life?
And that but but the partnership side is interesting because employers can work in partnership with the employee to extend that journey a few more steps down life road and at the same time re tremendously reduce turnover and and create better fulfillment. And so I’d love to discuss that. So so if you treat we when you talk about partnership and you and and you know when your corporate clients you know engage you
What what is it that you’re suggesting to them or how do they how do you achieve that partnership? Or what is that partnership? What does it look like?
Ellen Steverson (08:31)
So part of partnership is even if you, regardless of usually the educational background, okay, if you come right out of high school and start working in a job and you get promoted and things like that, or if you go to college and come back in, you know, get go to college for four years and then go to work somewhere, business fluency is really missing. And employers are so busy.
Jeff Walter (08:54)
Okay.
Ellen Steverson (08:56)
hiring and getting them trained on the job. So one specific again, we walk around with these like a horse with a race with blinders on, that they don’t have a lot of business fluence. See. So they don’t understand. I mean, seriously, Tom and I in the resume industry get thousands of people who call us up and need resumes. And when we start really talking to them about like, okay, so you’re in marketing and how does that impact the company? What are your results? What does it do? It is amazing the breakdown there.
Jeff Walter (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Steverson (09:24)
It’s like they don’t really understand or they want to leave a company and go somewhere else because there’s no opportunities. And Tom and I are like, Well, wait a minute. That’s a pretty good company you’re working for. Why would you leave there? Have you talked to them about this type of role or that type of role or transferring over here? And it’s there’s a total breakdown there. So again, they think they got to leave because there’s no opportunities, right, Tom?
Tom Powner (09:42)
What
Well, the breakdown is the communication and that’s weaved for a whole book. It’s the communication we is weave is important. I I well the last company I worked for was the manufacturing and dispute distributor. So they had hundred and eighty locations that distributed the building material that they manufacture, so it was an integrated company. And as a ⁓ multi-unit manager, it was like I was a franchise owner of nine locations. And I kinda had my own freedom in a lot of different things. It was like I was running my own business.
Ellen Steverson (09:49)
Mm.
Jeff Walter (10:11)
Right.
Tom Powner (10:16)
And the challenge was now that I look back after we wrote the book and everything, I look back at some of the things that was missing and some of it were the communications from the corporate to the franchise owner, the unit multi unit manager, and then from the multi unit manager to the manager then and the staff, the communication broken and and if it was just stronger, there was a lot of a lot of great people that left and that probably could have still been part of the corporate team now.
Jeff Walter (10:42)
Yeah.
Well it it’s you know, it’s interesting ’cause like about two months ago I was at the ⁓ ASC training manager council. that’s the Automotive Service Excellence. They’re the the Auto Tech guys. And ⁓ and the the the big you know, the I’ve been I’ve gone to a c a number of these over the years, remember. And ⁓ you know, when you were saying ⁓ the c you know, kids whether coming out of high school or college or an you know, first time into the workforce, there were some numbers there that
blew me away on the auto tech side. Like, and I I’ve repeated this a couple of times so listeners forgive me, but but folks that go through a auto tech training and and and finish the training, you know, to enter a job, a third of them never get a never seek a job in that sector. And then of the ones that do, a third of them quit within the first year and leave the sector. Like
It’s like and so it and I think it’s like after three or four years, you’re something like only a third of the original crew is still in the industry. And it and and and it’s that mismatch of perceptions, right? Like the I I you I think you called it what, business fluency? Was that it, El Ellen? Was that the term?
Ellen Steverson (11:54)
Business fluency,
you know, do your ASE guys understand the business as an overall? Like, are you just there ⁓ you know, flipping your wrench around to fix a car? Are you really there to generate revenue? See, that’s the business fluency side of it. Is that, you know, when I write and I’m very familiar with mechanics, like I said earlier, I grew up in a house that was a car dealership. My dad was the service manager of a very well-known one on Long Island, and
Jeff Walter (12:07)
Right.
Ellen Steverson (12:20)
You know, again, he would always be talking to me about business. And yes, mechanics are there to provide a service, but they’re really there to make sure people come back and return. And so it’s all of that aspect. It’s really about employees not embracing their real role in it. So that’s business fluency. And and again, companies neglect to do that because they just in their mind it’s an assumption like that they would get that. But it also, you know, in your industry.
It is a societal thing. I mean, there is a lot of what I refer to as job snobbery, where and you know, this comes from my employability background for you know three or four years running a s ⁓ an award winning state program. you know, that again, if they w go into any industry and they have a perception that’s altered or think it’s wrong or whatever, you know, if somebody’s forcing them to take a ASC.
tech training, but they don’t really buy into it, then they would leave quickly. Again, I talk to people all the time about every job in America is is the most important job there is. And getting people to understand that their job is very important, regardless, you know, again, I’d have I’d I’d ask students who’s the most important person in the school building? And they’d all say the principal. And I’d have to say, no, he’s not. I hate to tell you, but the most important person is the custodial man that just walked by.
He’s the most important person because if the building’s not clean, we can’t come here and g and work, we’ll all be sick. And the kids would be like, yeah, and COVID did prove that, okay? So I’m just saying
Tom Powner (13:41)
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (13:53)
Well y you know it it it it does yeah, I I it really resonate with what you’re saying, Ellen, because ⁓ I I’ve had conversations with individuals, you know, not in my professional capacity. I’m like I every job is important, otherwise they wouldn’t be paying somebody to do it.
Ellen Steverson (14:11)
Exactly.
Tom Powner (14:11)
Exactly.
Ellen Steverson (14:12)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (14:12)
Like like
you know, organizations don’t just go, you know what, I got an extra fifty grand lying around. Let me hire somebody to do something we don’t really need. Like, you know, it’s like, no, no, it’s important.
Ellen Steverson (14:24)
Mm-hmm.
It’s important. Exactly. And so that’s what we are trying to get out there is like have these better conversations. Everybody, parents, teachers, coworkers, you know, we should all be talking about career management in a positive way instead of everyone walking around disgruntled, you know.
Jeff Walter (14:42)
Well so
Tom Powner (14:42)
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (14:42)
so how yeah t Tom how how did how does a an employer like I I I understand it from the employee standpoint, right? I’m me, I’m CEO of my life, I have my one life, I’m trying to navigate this and and live the most fulfilling life I can have. And that’s by definition individual a very individual thing, right? So I I understand it from that perspective, but
What’s intriguing is is is you said partnership. On the employer side, like you you’ve gotta run a business. You you you know, revenue has to be greater than expense. There’s things that you need to get done. There’s this ⁓ you know,
you know, there there’s what I call like the HR model of employment, which is you kind of create a bunch of pigeonholes and this person does A and this person does B, and then you put people in the pigeonholes. and then there’s the good to great model or n or first break all the rules model, which is like you design jobs around people and their skills. But as an employer, if you want to like what do you do on the employer side to foster the environment that allows
Tom Powner (15:30)
Right.
Jeff Walter (15:51)
That allows the things you’re talking about. I mean, I one thing I think you said, Alan, was well, you can help them with the business fluency, right? Like just help them understand to help especially you know, entry-level folks that are coming into the workforce for the first time, what what we’re all here to do. Because you aren’t just there to generate like the ⁓ service tech, you’re not there to generate revenue and repeat customers for the the company. You’re actually there to
help people get their vehicles back on the road as quickly as possible in high quality manner so they can go about their lives and for that honor they give the dealership a couple of dollars and and then the dealership gives you a couple of dollars. So it actually goes, you know, but but what can the employer do
Tom Powner (16:36)
Well
well, first I think they need to communicate everyone’s role in the bigger picture of running the company. Because when someone doesn’t feel proud that they’re contributing, exactly they start losing interest in the company. And then beyond that, with the leadership, you know, managers and leadership is two different things. When the leadership really understands everyone’s purpose and and and then help people move up in the company. I’m not saying move up the ladder, yes, that can be a case, but just
Let them know what skills are needed for the next role or the or the next ⁓ or even what new skills are coming into the industry. So many people at certain levels, they’re just blind to everything. So a lot of that falls on the shoulders of the business ⁓ to let people know that you’re valued and because you’re valued, this is what your contributions give back to the company. And then when people feel proud of their work, they’re actually more engaged to even want to do more beyond just their job. That’s the first step.
Ellen Steverson (17:27)
Jeff. So what I would
add, yeah, what I would add to Tom’s is, you know, at the end of the day, we all really, and I know I use the example of young people, but I’m really, I mean, Tom and I, my my main clientele is 40 and over. And I’m saying business fluency does not exist in the 40 and up. So again, instead of so the technician, he has the skill sets to to service the cars, yes, and he has to get them out, yes.
Jeff Walter (17:38)
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Ellen Steverson (17:57)
But then if you only concentrate on those skills, you’re missing the career opportunity. And that’s what we’re talking about with career management that should come from leadership down to management, down, down, down, that says we respect and want to help everyone have great careers, hence great lives. And when you do that, you then explain to the technicians you are part of revenue. Because if you don’t produce cars quickly, they don’t come back. And even though you might say that, but then you need to look at their skill sets and say,
Okay, who’s my guy or woman who is really good at talking to people and things like that? Well, your career path then can be at this, this, this. Okay. And I don’t really I don’t really believe in a true ladder. I know there’s promotions and availability, and that’s what I’m usually getting people. But again, your your skill sets could go lateral. They could go back and forth and different things like that. So it’s that type of conversations that need to take place from a leadership and really start talking to people about career management.
Jeff Walter (18:41)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Steverson (18:55)
So that people feel, hey, they’ve got an invested attitude about my career, and I should have a c an invested attitude about their business as a whole, which is revenue. And we even go as far as in our book, Jeff, to discuss when you say a $50,000 salary, what does that really mean for the employer? We all know that it does not mean $50,000. There is a wrap rate, or whatever your accountant calls it, that adds on the light, the electricity, the
Jeff Walter (19:10)
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Steverson (19:24)
Everything. So we’re teaching in our book that business side. Like if you think you make 50,000, the employer is going to pay 75 to 100,000. He’s got added expenses. So that’s what Tom and I are trying to do is get everybody talking about career management as a whole. And even your franchisors and everybody there, you know, it’s about, okay, well, you have six franchises. How about eight franchises? Twelve. That’s all career management. Entrepreneurs don’t skirt around career management.
Jeff Walter (19:32)
Exactly.
Ellen Steverson (19:53)
Their their c their career is entrepreneurship, but scaling and all that, that’s all career management. Right, Tom?
Tom Powner (19:53)
Yeah.
Right, and it and all it all comes back to retention. Employee retention is such a is such a it’s a it’s just a f it’s a deep hole for expenses, just disappear. It’s not just repl it takes time, three to four months to re replace a upper middle manager, ⁓ and less time for different levels, but it’s all that knowledge, it’s all that know-how, it’s all that problem solving that disappears
Ellen Steverson (20:03)
Mm.
Tom Powner (20:24)
when you have to replace somebody. A lot of people don’t even think about that. Or they think about it but they really don’t understand what it means to the business and everyone else everyone else who worked with that person.
Ellen Steverson (20:33)
Or the risk of hiring the wrong person who could damage your company. So when people feel well connected, I don’t really like to say we’re one big family. You know, again, I don’t like that type of ⁓ conversations at work. To me, you’re a partnership and you’re in a community, and the community has common goals, and the goal is, and everybody should know what that goal is.
Jeff Walter (20:54)
So so I’m I’m understanding i a as on the employer side or on the on the brand side if I have a a a network, I can understand the the communication aspect, you know, kinda and and educating people on on that and you know what you know, it’s it’s
Ellen Steverson (21:00)
Mm.
Jeff Walter (21:10)
I I to me it’s kinda more goes more towards the value or the culture of that organization, right? Like like it gets to the you know, if you are here and you are getting a paycheck, you’re valuable because we you know, because other you know, and and and and and you’re giving your gifts and and and and they’re making a difference in the world, right? And everybody wants to contribute. Nobody
Very, very I’ve seen very, very few people that don’t want to contribute. Right? They don’t want their everybody everybody wants their time to mean something. ⁓ and so but how do I I I can communicate that, but there are so many instances of the message is different than the operations. how do I i are there ways to avoid it being just platitudes? Do you do you know what I’m saying?
Tom Powner (21:46)
Definitely.
Jeff Walter (22:03)
⁓ you know, I’m just trying to think of how how do I up I’m ⁓ how do I operationalize the communication and and and and how do I help establish that culture? It’s do you know what I’m saying? Like like it’s like, you know, years ago like mission statements were the big thing and everybody spent a lot of time on them and then they were just, you know, on a plaque on the wall, and then you know, the company would operate in a way that violated half the things on the mission statement. Right.
Tom Powner (22:27)
Well that that’s where the problem starts.
Ellen Steverson (22:28)
Right.
Jeff Walter (22:30)
And yeah, go ahead, Ellen.
Ellen Steverson (22:30)
Right. Right. Well, I think it has everything to do with intentionality. Like again, employers and employees have to be intentional about careers in general or the culture that we the employers provide. So, you know, instead of having these meetings all the time, maybe they should have informal ⁓ lunches where
The district manager is sitting with the ASC certified technician talking about how great his role, not a a true meeting meeting, but an informal thing where somebody can talk about like we need to start celebrating careers and talking about them in a way that says, Hey, I was once a technician or hey, I was this. You know, t Tom and I, and probably you, our age generation, we were raised.
To really understand there’s a connection between money and life and working. Not everybody has that really understanding anymore. Okay. So again, it’s building and nurturing a culture that embraces careers and and really the employers need to stop being fearful of people leaving because they they’re afraid, well, if we tell them too much, they’ll leave. That’s gonna happen if they if you don’t tell them anything either. But what we’re saying is, Tom and I’ve witnessed firsthand how.
Jeff Walter (23:42)
Right.
Tom Powner (23:45)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (23:48)
When people come to us and they say, Hey, we need a good resume because we got to leave this joint. Tom and I are like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, maybe you need a good resume so you understand how to communicate your skills better to your current employer because what’s so bad about that employer? And then as we start uncovering, they just don’t know how to communicate upper, and there’s no culture ⁓ encouraging that, except for you know, that once a year performance evaluation, which we all know has already been determined up here, your salary and what’s gonna happen. So that really is a wasted meeting.
Jeff Walter (24:04)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Ellen Steverson (24:17)
So again, incorporating things and really getting people to s come to you as a manager and say, Hey, where do you see your job going next? What skills are you missing? If you don’t know how to communicate well as a technician, have them trail a service advisor one day and let them see all the different conversations they have to have with people all day long. Things like that. So it’s a it’s an it’s a program like our model. It’s a rhombus, it’s not circle, because a circle means smooth sailing. A career kind of clunks along.
And the rump is my fallover and you got to get back up. You know, we got to stop denying layoffs and things that go wrong that could impact everybody. So we talk about all of that. And that’s what I think employers need to start doing is being more, you know, ⁓ direct and really, even like you said earlier, sometimes employers don’t connect jobs to the bigger picture. They are just like, you’re here to do this. We pigeonholed you into this role, do this role only.
Jeff Walter (24:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (25:13)
And that really can annoy people and they leave.
Tom Powner (25:16)
And just to add to Ellen, I I think skip skip meetings where not your direct boss, but your boss’s boss has those talks with you because sometimes there is something wrong, you know, there’s something that right between the relationship or something that when you do that skip meeting, a a whole different vibe can come out. So I think that’s missing in a lot of companies.
Ellen Steverson (25:23)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (25:35)
The the skip being skip the layer of management above you and go right to yeah.
Tom Powner (25:38)
Right. So you’re not not your
boss, your director your b your boss’s boss speaks to you, depending on where you’re on in in the in the company. but I think those are very valuable. So there’s ⁓ again, it’s all about the communication.
Jeff Walter (25:50)
Yeah. It’s it it’s interesting, you just you just triggered ⁓ a thought in my head. Not the the skip meeting’s an interesting thing. That’s the first I I that’s the first time I’ve heard of that. So that’s an that’s it like a you know, th that’s a nice oper operationalization to and I actually as soon as you said that I jumped to a couple of in my career ⁓ a couple of skip meetings and they’re but they you they were they didn’t have a name. I just ended up meeting with my boss’s boss and ⁓
And it was very a as an employee it was very interesting. and I th like that’s the type of thing you can operationalize, right? Like that’s like just and it doesn’t have to be a big formal thing. It can just be a a get together. ⁓ you know, and and just to share information so it’s not all being filtered through the the chain of command, right? It’s like the it’s like the CEO that that goes and eats in the company cafeteria and and
Tom Powner (26:29)
Very casual. Yep.
Being
it’s
Jeff Walter (26:43)
has
and is is having lunch with you know rank and file folks, right? Just and, you know, A to put a face on leadership, but B to get primary market primary intelligence and not have everything be filtered. so I I think there’s a a value there but but that’s that’s that’s really interesting. I was going in a different direction and then your skip meeting just maybe
Tom Powner (27:06)
Sorry.
Jeff Walter (27:07)
No, no, I thought no, thought ’cause I thought I thought that was really, really good. Like I like that. You know, as a way of insight Right, like in institutionalizing it. And the other the the other thought that went to my mind, and it goes back I I was really impressed years ago when I read ⁓ First Break All the Rules, which is the opposite of the HR pigeonhole. You know, it’s it’s build the jobs around the people and their skills.
Ellen Steverson (27:11)
Uh-huh.
Yep, skip meetings are definitely f important. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (27:32)
and and that’s how you get breakthrough performance. and one thing a and and you s you said it Ellen it was really interesting. I I was talking to somebody younger, you know, somebody early in their career and about the value of joining a small firm. And and I’m just you know I and I didn’t qu I didn’t
think of it at the time, but you know, if you look at a l lot of these franchisees, they’re small firms. And the and the the value was to do exactly what you said when you talked about the tech going and h hanging out with the service manager and all that. It’s I I think the value in the small firm is you can wear many hats.
And y well because yeah, because you don’t have departments of people doing something. Like I was talking to a colleague of mine yesterday who used to work for one of the big three autos out here, and she was in finance and she was responsible for payables of vendors beginning with the letter P. Right? So very narrow focus, right? Now a very valuable job because you know it
Tom Powner (28:09)
Have to sometimes.
Ellen Steverson (28:14)
Mm.
Jeff Walter (28:36)
In in a large Fortune five hundred company, it’s like you’re coordinating the efforts of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. And so yes, you get those types of thing. But in the small firm, you can be the bookkeeper, but then you can also do a sales meeting. You could also learn how to turn a wrench or install of this, or work the front of the office. hel help out on the line as a line cook. Like you can wear all different types of hats, which
goes back to what you were saying, Alan, with ⁓ it doesn’t have to be a you know, the next step up, it can be horizontal as well.
Ellen Steverson (29:10)
Corre.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Powner (29:11)
And sometimes
those are the best jobs. You learn so many skills in those jobs that prepared you for multiple ⁓ type of opportunities in the future.
Ellen Steverson (29:15)
Mm.
Right, which is basically what one life, one career also means. It’s about stacking your skills to become more valuable. When you say to people, we want you to start a new job or a new career is what people usually say. Hey, we’re you need to go back to school and and learn how to do this and start a new career in that. Well, again, everybody is stacking skills, and that’s what makes us more valuable. And, you know, I agree people definitely should be the CEO of their careers, but I always say,
We all should be the subject matter expert of our careers. We should be able to communicate. We should understand the skills we’re building. We should be moving forward. That subject matter expertise about our career. And then I do recall, you know, when I was talking to somebody about in the automotive world in a showroom, he was trying to explain something to me. And I said, Well, you know, if you go get the mechanic and have him come out here, he could be your subject matter expert and stand next to you and train you on what to say. And the man’s just looking at me and like, How do you know all this? And I was
well, my dad ran a service dealership. I said, but that’s called cross, you know, cross-training. But you know, having career subject matter experts should be in every company. And you should be able to rely on them and be like, Bob, I need you to come up here and show Ellen and talk to Ellen about whatever because you’re the subject matter expert. And then let the technician come forward. And then what is he getting trained to do? He’s now prepping for sales and helping sales become. So again, instead of always having formal training, intertwine these types of things and build a cut culture.
Jeff Walter (30:18)
Ha ha.
Tom Powner (30:20)
Okay.
Ellen Steverson (30:47)
around career management. That’s what we’re advocating for, right, Tom?
Tom Powner (30:51)
Yeah, and in the franchise industry that is even more important than ever.
Ellen Steverson (30:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think in small companies, I’ve had small companies come to me and say, Alan, can you write us job postings? Can you help us with it? And I love helping the smaller companies in all different ways. Because when I ran my employability program, that’s who I was dealing with. And I’d say to them, Well, what are you offering to the employees? And you know, they’d be like, I give them a turkey, you know. And that’s again, everybody’s looking to get their career advanced. So even small franchise owners have to talk about
Jeff Walter (31:18)
Uh-huh.
Ellen Steverson (31:22)
working at a franchise as a great career and the skills they learn beyond just and then if they start to notice somebody is is drifting or stagnated, you know, instead of making them fearful to talk about something, have better conversations. Because if somebody came to me and said, Hey, I would like to be something else, I would be like, well, here’s the skills here. Like I turn people all the time into something, you know, a different career, they say. And I’m like, nope, it’s one career, one life.
Tom Powner (31:40)
⁓
Ellen Steverson (31:51)
You can be a professor and then all of a sudden you’re in security. You’re you’re in a ⁓ you know, doing something and now you’re in sales. So again, it’s one career, one life, but we need people in our lives to promote it. Go ahead, Dom. I’m sorry.
Tom Powner (32:03)
And a com
a conversation me and I have another day was like, you know, if you’re not earning and learning in a c in a job, lots of times that’s when you start looking outward. ⁓ so it it’s a combination of everyone’s responsibility, but the the ⁓ the company needs to make sure the employees are learning because they’re gonna feel less valuable, especially when technology like AI changes things so rapidly. And we we’re having a a a big uproar about AI, people don’t know AI, but how how much is the company
Ellen Steverson (32:13)
Mm.
Tom Powner (32:31)
training the employees on how to use AI in their position. So earning and learning becomes, I think, a main focal point of a lot of employees.
Jeff Walter (32:38)
Yeah, well that that’s that that’s interesting. ⁓ I was at a conference recently and there was a gentleman talking about how we’re just like we went from the industrial worker to the knowledge worker, we’re we’re transitioning from the knowledge worker to the learning worker. Because, you know, just like robotics had replaced for the most part, manual labor. So you you know, I I tell this people like
Ellen Steverson (32:53)
Mm.
Jeff Walter (33:02)
If you go to a a modern factory, the the factory worker is not the factory worker of fifty years ago. They’re they’re actually all skilled technicians. You know, they may not be called a technician, but the the robot the automation is doing most of the work. And they’re there as technicians to to fix the automation. and what this gentleman was saying is is is the same thing’s happening to the knowledge worker. If you’re the knowledge worker has historically been somebody that had a
Ellen Steverson (33:08)
Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (33:29)
specialized piece of knowledge that they would apply over and over and over and over again. And that AI is gonna do to that type of career what automation did to the manual labor career. Right? It’s it’s if you’re doing the same knowledge over and over and over again, that can be automated through AI. And so what you have to do is constantly be learning. And then I it kind of dovetails into what you’re talking about. It and it’s a change in perspective on the on the employer to sit there and go, well
Just because I’ve automated this job A, let me take these valuable people that understand our culture and give them the opportunity to to try different roles and responsibilities and and learn. And I don’t know, what do you think of that as a as a or approach?
Ellen Steverson (34:13)
No, I agree with you.
I wouldn’t wait though. I wouldn’t wait till you’re deciding to outsource or get rid of a job. I think again, if the culture is built on the belief of learning, earning, and careers are important, then that flows naturally. So when you are saying in a meeting, okay, we’re going to be automating, we got four people, what are we going to do with them? That’s when. And even fill the pipeline of is somebody so good that maybe they could be a franchiser someday? You know, ⁓ thinking about all that.
Jeff Walter (34:41)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (34:42)
at every level.
Jeff Walter (34:43)
Yeah, well well, it’s interesting, i what you just said, it’s like y you you actually need to do that before you think of that. Like if you already had a culture of doing that, then that doesn’t create a ⁓ a shock or a fear. It’s like, okay, we you know, like you know, with customer s you know, say customer service reps. Right? A lot of that is being automated.
Tom Powner (34:50)
yeah.
Shock. Yeah.
Jeff Walter (35:05)
through AI and it’s like, well, if your customer service reps were also dead, you know, if if they had been given the opportunity in as from a career development standpoint to try other things within your organization and dip their toe. And that’s where I got I I I kind of just have a a personal issue with the whole ⁓ pigeonhole thing. Like it’s it’s easier, but I don’t think you really untap human potential. And I think that’s not in the ⁓
organization’s best interest.
Tom Powner (35:31)
To what Ellen said, you y you don’t wait for to happen. That has to be part of the culture of the company. Always look to bring people up or sideways w whatever you want to call it. If you’re not training them or you’re not helping them learn more about the business, organization, other roles, ⁓ everyone everyone nobody wins long term.
Ellen Steverson (35:31)
Right.
Jeff Walter (35:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (35:49)
Right. And nobody feels part of the community if you’re only teaching me one little bit of the community. I don’t understand how I fit in. And like I said, that’s every level just about, you know. I mean, I I was writing a project manager’s resume one day and I was like, okay, so tell me about your budgeting experience. And he’s like, I don’t do any budgets. I was like, What? You’re in project management. And he’s like, Well, that’s Bob’s roll down the hallway. And I was like, Okay, well, you just got your certificate in P and P. How about you walk down Bob’s door, knock on his door, and say, Hey, can I have some budgets? ‘Cause I gotta
Jeff Walter (35:57)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Steverson (36:19)
Straight in this skill. And he’s just sort of laughing. He’s Bob would never do that. He’d never give me a budget. I was like, Yes, he will. Go ask. And he didn’t. And about a week later, he called back. He goes, Okay, I took your advice because I couldn’t figure out how to find budget training elsewhere. Went down the hallway and asked Bob. And not only did Bob turn around, he was like, Here’s three, take them. You know? So my point of that story, though, is you know, again, if you have employees, shouldn’t they all know about budgets in some ways? Shouldn’t everybody be talking about
Tom Powner (36:37)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (36:47)
And then you’re cross-training, but in a natural way. and not having to say, you gotta go back to school, you gotta do this, we’re sending you to a 12-hour class. but it does, you know, one thing I noticed when I ran an employability program with internships, the businesses in my community really loved me. And it wasn’t because my students, it was because how their employees felt when they were training the students. It’s how the employees started coming back into
Jeff Walter (37:09)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen Steverson (37:13)
With their shirts tucked in, because Miss Steverson doesn’t allow people to walk around with shirts untucked, you know, and you have to shake hands, you had to give eye kind of. Those were the skills I was teaching high school students. But the managers would come to me and be like, dang, you’re making all my employees act differently. And that’s true with anybody, regardless of how old you are. You know, in the movie in the book, we have six movies in there. I will tell you real quick. We’ve invited we included movies just for fun, because life should be fun, career management should be fun.
Jeff Walter (37:29)
Ha ha ha.
Tom Powner (37:30)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (37:43)
And I love the movie The Intern where you have Robert De Niro going back as an older person. So this isn’t an age thing. This isn’t a entry level versus executive level. Career management should be talked about all the time.
Jeff Walter (37:47)
⁓ yeah.
Well, ⁓ I love that movie. That was a that was a great movie. Well, it well, ’cause it’s it you know, I I I I think it it’s I think we gotta get away from the engineering I there’s a tension there. It’s a real tension and on the employer side, and I understand that as as a as a business owner. There’s a tension there between how do you coordinate the work of, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of people. Like
Ellen Steverson (38:00)
Yes.
Tom Powner (38:00)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (38:13)
⁓
Jeff Walter (38:25)
And so there’s a certain engineering and but the people that really focus on engineering it, you end up with mediocre performance. Because there’s gotta be an organic piece, it’s more like an ecosystem. And if it’s highly engineered, then it’s what you said. It’s like I’m just a cog I mean, literally p you know, engineered people think of themselves as a cog in the machine, right?
And they and they and and it’s really interesting. I like what they with the intern, it’s like, well, no, he brings all this knowledge and experience with him. He happens to play in this one particular role, which he had which if I recall pro he is not it’s not something that he’s done for twenty years. So the role is new. There’s skills he has to learn, but he’s bringing with him all this other knowledge and experience.
Ellen Steverson (38:58)
Uh-huh.
Jeff Walter (39:12)
Which can be of which which is of value at certain points. Right? It’s like it it’s it’s what are the other movies? I’m curious. So there’s the intern. I like that one.
Ellen Steverson (39:12)
Right.
So so Tom,
go ahead and give one of your favorites out of the book.
Tom Powner (39:23)
Well, w one
was one of my favorites was Flaming Hot. where I I forgot the character’s name, but it had to do with the in the the reader factory. So you had this entry level type of ⁓ position. A guy wanted ⁓ to bring different flavors to his community, which was the Hispanic community, but he he just i they kept pushing him down, they didn’t want to hear him, so he learned everything about the business from ground up. He stayed late, he teamed with other people, he watched how manufacturing worked and everything.
Jeff Walter (39:27)
Okay, I haven’t seen that one.
Okay.
Tom Powner (39:51)
And then he w he was able to at some point present his findings and and actually get flaming hot is that that that flavor of Doritos and then it just expanded the business. So it was a good cool story. There’s so many things that we discussed in the book that it represented in that movie that just makes it a wow, a wow factor movie. So it’s a lot more it’s about relationships, about networking, it’s about learning, it’s about being motivated. It it’s just that I just thought it was a beautiful new movie. Me and Ellen watched it together.
⁓ the first time ’cause we thought it would be Yeah. Yeah, so
Ellen Steverson (40:21)
conference, right? At a conference. So that
Jeff Walter (40:22)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (40:24)
was great. My favorite movie in the book is ⁓ hidden figures. It’s about the ⁓ mathematicians and stuff in NASA. And I love that ’cause it’s three women bla you know, ⁓ trailing through but kind of blazing their own trail. But it really shows the human dynamics, but it also shows like how NASA had strict rules and different things like that. And these women are like, Mm, yeah, I’m not gonna
Jeff Walter (40:28)
huh. Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (40:49)
I’m gonna speak up and they speak up. And I find that a lot with our clients is that you know, like I’ll say, Well, what was the metric? I don’t know. And I’ll say, Well, did you ask your boss? Or they’ll say, My boss doesn’t tell me any metrics, and I’ll say, Great, did you ask? They’ll be like, Well, no, he just doesn’t tell. I said, Well, ask, and then he might tell you, and then they’ll come back a week later and they’ll be like, Ellen, I went to a meeting.
Jeff Walter (40:51)
Yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Ellen Steverson (41:11)
And again, these are not always young people. These are forty, fifty, fifty-five-year-old people sitting in a room thinking, my boss doesn’t tell me anything. When in reality you don’t ask. But they don’t ask because they don’t have business fluency sometimes. So they don’t know what to ask. They don’t want to be embarrassed. ⁓ so then, you know, that’s all part of it. But yeah, we and we even added some quirky ones like Legally Blonde. I’m sure there’s lots of people who’d be like, Ellen, but that’s a good movie too. So there’s six different movies, actually, seven. And ⁓ that’s part of it too. But to
Jeff Walter (41:14)
⁓
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That’s
Tom Powner (41:41)
Well
w well, I just didn’t mean it’s but the in hidden figures, one another main component of it, there was new technology coming in the workplace. So instead of saying, we’re gonna be eliminated, the lead the lead ⁓ person in that group of people learned the technology and then taught everybody else. So they weren’t replaced, they just shifted into a new role. I thought that was amazing.
Jeff Walter (41:42)
That’s
Ellen Steverson (41:49)
Right.
Jeff Walter (41:59)
Right. Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (42:00)
Right.
Right. And you see how she protected the other employees. And that is again, people come into work now and they forget they’re part of a community. You know, again, we should all be looking out for each other and saying, Hey, did you notice this? Or even saying to a boss, Hey, have you seen, you know, Ellen’s really good talking to people, even though she’s a, you know, doing this, get her out there on the sales floor or doing whatever. I just don’t think, you know, again, there’s there’s plenty of opportunities within every company.
Jeff Walter (42:11)
Right.
Ellen Steverson (42:29)
So we don’t always have to look externally. So career management to me is about an internal and external view. And we really want to make sure. And it’s only a four component model, but it’s packed with tools, strategies, all that. and the four components are discover yourself. So there is a part about discovering yourself. There’s expanded horizons, and that is kind of twofold. Yes, you have to expand your horizon as an individual, but that is where we bring in an entire chapter.
Jeff Walter (42:48)
Right.
Ellen Steverson (42:58)
actually almost two chapters just on employers. ⁓ we have a great letter that Tom was instrumental in making sure we got that in the book and took it from the employer side and it’s a direct letter to employees saying, here’s what we’re really thinking about what’s going on. So that’s a great thing. We have forged relations because that is what work is about. Humans hire human. People work together as people. The CEO is not a a terrible person. He’s another I mean a terrible thing. He’s a person.
So we we’ve we talk about that in forge relations. And then the the final model is drive strategy. You know, again, you as the subject matter expert or the CEO of your career have to learn how to communicate. And if you can’t communicate it, don’t think the person above you, next to you, sideways, can understand what you do either. So that’s the drive strategy. And of course, that loops back to discover yourself. And as Tom mentioned earlier, the entire
Jeff Walter (43:28)
Right.
Ellen Steverson (43:54)
model is strung together with what we call the communication weave. And everything in the the book is forge forward because you forge forward in a career.
Jeff Walter (44:03)
And you s the yeah, at the time we’re recording this, the book is coming out, w what time frame? I it’s not out yet, right? It’s coming out soon.
Ellen Steverson (44:10)
It’s at the
publish it’s going to the publishers, it’s go it’s at the copyright office today. It’ll be at the c publishers later today and they’ll do what they do for the next couple of weeks. So it’ll be out in July.
Jeff Walter (44:20)
So ⁓ July of twenty twenty six and and w ⁓ is where where would one go if they wanted to get it? Is it gonna be on Amazon or your local bookstore or what’s the best way to get a hold of it?
Ellen Steverson (44:22)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Powner (44:23)
Yep.
Ellen Steverson (44:31)
Right.
It’ll definitely be on Amazon. We should we can we send you a QR code or anything like that where they can they can they can definitely Yep. Yep, that’ll be great. They’ll have a link for that. And we currently do programming for Forge Forward as well. So you asked in the beginning, you know, like we’ve had corporations hire us to do webinars and programming for whatever type of HR programs they have, things like that. We’ve done, you know.
Jeff Walter (44:38)
Yeah. Yeah, you can send a link and we’ll put a link in the show notes. Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (44:58)
book bag to briefcase, you know, and things like that, business fluency and just bring a different perspective that we always are on both sides. We ride the fence in the middle and we help on both sides.
Jeff Walter (45:11)
Go ahead, Tom.
Tom Powner (45:12)
No, no, just one of the things we also ⁓ ’cause people come to us lots of times because the type of business they’re they’re at a certain crossroad. They n they just went out and or they were pushed out. And so many people come to us just hate corporate America. they just bash everything about the boss, everything about a and again, we wanna we wanna soften that approach because that does no one good. so we we’re trying to also
make sure that that vibe and that that attitude is is softened a lot because lots of things just happen for a lot of different reasons. So
Jeff Walter (45:47)
Yeah. Well, I I think this I mean, I think your book is very, very timely, ⁓ with the AI revolution going on. Having having been a part of a couple of technological revolutions, they they always ⁓ they always follow they follow a pattern. They overpromise, under deliver, and then change everything. And you know, it happened with the internet, it happened with computers.
Ellen Steverson (45:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (46:15)
back in the you know eighties, nineties. you know, it gets overhyped, under so underdelivered, and but then eventually it is a groundbreaking technology that changes everything. And then it results in a different rel employer employee relationship. It it it it ev that relationship evolves. And I think getting your book out there
Ellen Steverson (46:30)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (46:38)
So that all employers and employees, whether you’re you’re a large corporation or you’re managing a large network, you want to start to think about how you how that relationship might change as this new technology works its way into the workplace and it and it’s going to change it. And and so I think it’s very timely. So, you know, congratulations again and
Tom Powner (46:59)
Okay.
Ellen Steverson (47:00)
Thanks.
And it took a little while because Tom and I do have some great visual tools as well. And one of them is an employee and employer relations tool. And it’s it’s simplistic in a way. So people should be able to talk about it very easily with people from all different walks. but it again, decision making tools and things that we use in other jobs just wasn’t there in the career service industry at all. So Tom and I had to reinvent it and reimagine what career management is and
Well, most of it’s decision making. So we teach decision making in the book and and provide tools and strategies. So we’re hoping the employers embrace it. We would like to see lots of support from employers that say, We believe in this model, we support it, and then let it go out to the communities and and hit more people.
Jeff Walter (47:45)
Yeah, well I’m I’m looking forward to see ⁓ to see the impact it has. the releases in July other than the book, which you know, ⁓ tremendous accomplishment, but ⁓ i what what what else does the future hold for you the two of you?
Tom Powner (47:46)
Definitely.
Ellen Steverson (47:59)
Well, one of the things Tom, yeah, Tom and I both, you know, again, we we have really the last 10 years concentrated more on one-to-one. We do programming every year, we do public speaking, we get invited to conferences. We we are who we are in our world. so but really, you know, in the next 10 years, Tom and I would like to really change you know, how people talk about careers and get out there. And the only way to do that is to do it to more groups, bigger companies.
Tom Powner (47:59)
Kaido.
Ellen Steverson (48:27)
Things like that, who start embracing this conversation instead of being fearful, instead of considering it a taboo. Or, you know, I have people in HR who say to me, Well, I don’t know what career management is, Ellen. We call it professional development. No, that’s a sliver. See, everybody takes a sliver and and Tom and I, I can’t how many people, Tom? At least 50 of our colleagues were like, Don’t write a book on career management. Are you crazy? It’s way too complicated, too complex, blah, blah. Tom and I are like, Nope, we are tackling it and we are taking it head on. And we’ve done that. We’re very proud of it, right, Tom?
Tom Powner (48:57)
Yeah, we’re delivering a solution that anyone could take advantage of. bottom line.
Jeff Walter (49:00)
Well, I I
I and I love that the the term career management instead of career development because I I think career development connotates that more engineering I do A than I do B than I do C, you know, that that that deterministic path. And I think career management is more like how do I navigate what I want out of out of my life and and then and then on the employer side, how can I
Tom Powner (49:20)
Yeah, exactly.
Ellen Steverson (49:21)
Right. How do I
Jeff Walter (49:27)
activate my staff and tap into their full potential, which may not be how they entered the organization. It it might be. They might go junior marketing analyst, marketing analyst, marketing direct. You know, they might go up that functional hierarchy, but chances are most of them are gonna go left, right, over, zigzag, and and and ⁓ and then all of a sudden they’ll yeah, my they’re my marketing analyst, but they also do
Tom Powner (49:35)
Okay.
Ellen Steverson (49:47)
All right, zigzag. Embrace it.
Jeff Walter (49:56)
dot dot dot. Right. So I think it’s great and I and I think it’s a good conversation to have. Love the term. and I I think it’s very timely given what’s what’s happening in the in the career space. You know, and j just in general.
Ellen Steverson (50:09)
Right. And if you’re
Tom Powner (50:09)
Yeah, in general, yeah.
Ellen Steverson (50:11)
on LinkedIn and you see people using the word career hygiene, no, it’s career management. If they say career intelligence, no, that that people don’t have to be like, why are we saying career intelligence? It’s called career management. Everybody is skirting around, calling it what it is, because they don’t believe people can manage their own careers. And that’s a terrible, terrible thing to think. We all manage what we know, like, and trust. And that’s why we got to manage our careers, and the employers should help them.
Tom Powner (50:39)
And one thing you always talk about, Ellen, is protecting your career. You know, ⁓ because you know because when things happen in your career and you’re pushed out of something, you know, if you if you’re managing your career, you you’re ready to kinda hit the ground running to whatever the next target is.
Ellen Steverson (50:43)
Protecting it.
Right. You’re not shocked and horrified. And again, that’s about talking about layoffs as you know, I I’ve really for since probably two thousand and eight, I’ve been saying to all my clients, don’t think it won’t happen. Just assume it will happen and plan for it. That’s career management. And if guess what? If you save up money and you’re saving away just for because you might and now it’s up to over six months of unemployment if you lose your job. So again, if you don’t ever have an unemployment for six months, guess what? You got a bank account filled with money.
Jeff Walter (50:54)
No.
Uh-huh.
Ellen Steverson (51:24)
If you do get let go, you have six months of savings, then you then you’re okay. You know, things like that. That’s all career management conversations.
Jeff Walter (51:31)
So and I I see we’re coming up on time here. ⁓ is there anything else you want share with ⁓ the folks out there?
Tom Powner (51:38)
Well
Ellen Steverson (51:38)
Please connect with us on LinkedIn.
We’d love to talk to you. Share your career stories with us. If any of this resonated with you, usually one life, one career. You know, everybody kind of goes like, ⁓ what? that resonates with a lot of people. We’d love to hear your side of that.
Jeff Walter (51:52)
And and to get you to connect to you via LinkedIn, what’s the bet what you know, the name and company or
Ellen Steverson (52:00)
Yep, just Ellen Steverson. Yep, they’ll
Tom Powner (52:02)
Yeah.
Ellen Steverson (52:03)
find me on LinkedIn and same with Tom.
Tom Powner (52:03)
And and and Tom Pound is only four of the Tom Pounders in the US, so I’m easy to find.
Jeff Walter (52:09)
You’re the one with CareerTinker. all right. ⁓ well Ellen and Tom, thank you so much for we’ll make sure we have links to your your ⁓ companies and show notes and so people can find you that way as well. And guys, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Yep. And to everybody out there, thanks for listening and we’ll see you around next time.
Ellen Steverson (52:11)
That’s all right.
Tom Powner (52:15)
Yeah, welcome.
Okay, cool.
Ellen Steverson (52:25)
Thank you, Jeff, this has been great.
Tom Powner (52:25)
Yeah, it’s been a pleasure. Yeah.
Take care.