Hosted by Jeff Walter, Founder and CEO of LatitudeLearning
Training organizations have spent decades improving their ability to distribute knowledge. Learning management systems, digital courses, videos, virtual classrooms, documents, and other technologies have made it possible to deliver information to people almost anywhere. Yet making knowledge accessible does not necessarily mean learners will remember it, much less apply it effectively when the moment comes.
That distinction between knowing and doing is at the center of Grasply.
In this episode of the Training Impact Podcast, Jeff Walter speaks with Edmundo Barrientos, founder and CEO of Grasply, about how artificial intelligence, cognitive science, and simulation can help organizations move beyond simply presenting information. Their conversation explores how learners retain knowledge, why repetition and application matter, and how AI is making it increasingly practical to transform existing organizational knowledge into opportunities to practice.
For learning and development leaders, the discussion arrives at an important moment. Generative AI has already changed how quickly organizations can create written content, assessments, summaries, images, and other learning materials. Grasply is focused on another part of that equation: using AI to help learners practice what they have learned.
That shift has implications for sales training, onboarding, leadership development, operational training, medical device education, and other situations where knowing the correct answer is only the beginning. The real measure of performance comes when someone must actually do something with that knowledge.
Barrientos traces the origins of his work back approximately 20 years to Chile, where his first experiences with learning technology involved helping K-12 teachers and students understand academic subjects. He founded a company during that period and became increasingly interested in a question that would continue influencing his career: How do people actually learn?
His interest eventually expanded beyond children and schools. As his company grew, Barrientos began thinking about how employees learned and, more specifically, how organizations could help people apply what they had been taught.
Transferring a concept is one challenge. Turning that concept into effective behavior is another.
That problem became the foundation for Grasply.
Barrientos later moved to the United States, where Grasply is now based and where the company is primarily focused. His experience operating across Chile and the United States has also given him a perspective on how learning and innovation differ between markets. While he sees many of the fundamental L&D challenges as similar, he describes the United States as having a more developed ecosystem of tools and greater opportunities for specialization and innovation.
Latin American markets can require a different approach. Individual countries may share a language while differing substantially in culture, regulation, administration, and business practices. Smaller markets can also encourage organizations to provide a broader range of services, while the size and competitiveness of the U.S. market often reward a more specialized offering.
That experience reinforces a lesson that applies to training as much as business strategy. Scaling across markets is rarely a matter of duplicating exactly what worked somewhere else. Context matters, and successful learning systems must account for the people and environments in which learning will ultimately be applied.
Grasply’s vision is straightforward: close the gap between knowing and doing.
Organizations already possess enormous amounts of knowledge. They have standard operating procedures, manuals, playbooks, presentations, training videos, transcripts, product information, sales methodologies, and internal documentation. Much of the traditional training infrastructure is designed to transfer that information to learners.
The problem is what happens afterward.
Barrientos points to the forgetting curve and explains that without reinforcement and application, a substantial amount of what people are taught can disappear in the months following training. Walter connects that challenge to a familiar workplace reality. Even when people immediately use part of what they learned, many procedures contain exceptions or uncommon scenarios that may not arise until months later. By the time the unusual situation occurs, the learner may no longer remember what to do.
This creates a difficult challenge for L&D.
A course can successfully deliver information without creating durable performance. Someone can watch a video, read an SOP, complete an eLearning course, or pass a knowledge assessment and still struggle when required to apply that knowledge in an unfamiliar or high-pressure situation.
The issue is not that conventional training is unnecessary. In fact, Barrientos makes the opposite point. Learners need foundational knowledge before they can apply it. Videos, documents, PowerPoints, courses, and other instructional resources remain important because they establish the concepts learners need to understand.
But knowledge transfer represents only one stage of development.
The next question is how organizations create enough opportunities for learners to practice until knowing begins to become doing.
The answer begins with cognitive science.
Barrientos identifies repetition as one of the central principles behind the Grasply approach. The brain continually forms and strengthens connections, and repeated exposure or practice signals that particular information or behavior matters.
Walter offers a useful metaphor during the conversation. A new neural pathway can be thought of as a cow path. With repetition, the path becomes a road. Continued use can eventually turn it into something closer to a highway.
The metaphor captures an important training principle. Exposure is not the same as mastery.
Someone cannot learn to ride a bicycle simply by watching another person ride. At some point, the learner has to get on the bicycle and attempt the activity. The same logic applies to workplace performance. Reading about objection handling is different from responding to an objection. Studying a procedure is different from performing it. Reviewing guidance about difficult employee conversations is different from actually navigating one.
Historically, creating that practice has often required another person, specialized equipment, a classroom environment, or some combination of all three. Those requirements can make application-based training difficult to scale.
Salespeople may practice role-plays with managers or colleagues. New employees may shadow experienced workers. Technical specialists may travel to training centers to use equipment. Medical professionals may need access to expensive devices before they can practice operational procedures.
These methods can be highly effective, but they also create constraints involving time, scheduling, travel, equipment, instructor availability, and cost.
AI-generated simulation creates another possibility.
The second cognitive principle Barrientos emphasizes involves the brain’s response to simulation.
The goal of an effective simulation is not necessarily to reproduce reality perfectly. What matters is whether the learner is performing cognitive operations that meaningfully resemble the real task. Barrientos refers to this in terms of cognitive fidelity.
A simulation therefore does not always require an elaborate three-dimensional virtual environment.
He uses the example of workers learning to load beverage cases efficiently onto a pallet with a forklift. One approach would be to provide a real forklift, real cases, and a physical practice environment. But if the important cognitive challenge involves determining how the cases should be arranged, a learner could practice that process using small physical objects, including something as simple as LEGO pieces.
The physical environment is different, but the learner is still working through the underlying problem.
This distinction has major implications for L&D because high-fidelity training environments can be expensive and difficult to distribute. If trainers identify the cognitive operation that actually needs practice, they may be able to create a more accessible simulation without reproducing every physical characteristic of the workplace.
Grasply applies this concept by using organizational knowledge as source material for AI-generated simulations. SOPs, documents, transcripts, methodologies, product information, and other internal resources can provide the foundation from which a practice environment is created.
Barrientos explains that Grasply includes an AI assistant capable of using this information to generate simulations rapidly, in some cases in less than ten minutes. Instead of manually developing every scenario from the beginning, organizations can use knowledge they already possess to create opportunities for application.
Sales training is currently one of the clearest applications.
A new sales representative may understand the organization’s products and have access to an objection-handling methodology, but knowing the approved responses is different from carrying on a realistic conversation with a prospect.
A simulation gives the learner an opportunity to practice.
The scenario can reflect organizational product knowledge, processes, sales methodology, and expected approaches. Learners can encounter objections and work through the interaction repeatedly rather than waiting for those situations to occur with actual customers.
The same model can extend into leadership development. Managers can practice difficult conversations with employees before facing them in the workplace. A scenario might involve addressing inappropriate behavior, discussing the sharing of sensitive information, or navigating another challenging interpersonal situation.
This is one of the areas where AI simulation has become relatively easy for training leaders to visualize. An AI-driven character can behave like a customer, prospect, employee, or another stakeholder while the learner practices responding to that character.
But the Grasply model extends beyond conversational role-play.
That distinction becomes one of the most interesting parts of Walter and Barrientos’ discussion because it moves AI simulation from interpersonal skills into operational performance.
Barrientos describes emerging use cases involving medical devices and other equipment. Instead of asking a learner to read a manual and then move directly into practice with an expensive physical device, an organization can create a digital representation of the operational process.
He uses a coffee machine as a simplified example.
The simulation does not necessarily need to reproduce the machine photorealistically. It needs to represent the relevant buttons, controls, indicators, mechanisms, and sequence of operations. The learner might first complete a guided simulation in which an AI coach explains what to do and in what order.
Once the learner understands the process, the guidance can be removed.
Now the learner must perform the procedure independently and can be assessed on whether the correct actions are completed in the correct sequence. Immediate feedback can identify errors while the experience is still fresh rather than waiting until much later to tell someone what went wrong.
Walter compares the experience to a digital escape room. The learner interacts with elements in the environment, makes choices, and progresses by completing the correct actions.
For medical device training, the potential is particularly significant. Access to specialized equipment can require travel, expert instructors, scheduling, and considerable expense. In high-stakes environments, the consequences of practicing for the first time on an actual patient or during an actual procedure can also be substantial.
Digital simulation does not eliminate the need for eventual hands-on experience. Instead, it creates another layer between reading about a process and performing it in the real world.
That is an important distinction. Grasply is not presented as a replacement for the existing learning infrastructure. Barrientos describes it as a complement to it.
Learners still need the knowing.
Simulation creates a scalable opportunity to begin practicing the doing.
One of the most compelling ideas in the conversation is that simulation does not have to reproduce every detail of the physical environment to improve learning.
For Grasply, the important question is cognitive fidelity. Does the learner have to think through and perform the operations that matter in the real task?
That distinction can make simulation significantly more accessible. A digital representation of a device may not feel exactly like the physical equipment, but learners can still practice identifying controls, following sequences, making decisions, responding to changing conditions, and recognizing mistakes. Instead of moving directly from a manual into a real-world environment, they have an intermediate opportunity to apply what they know.
Barrientos sees the potential to increase that fidelity over time. One direction involves moving from two-dimensional digital simulations into virtual environments. Another involves adding physical components through technologies such as 3D printing.
The idea is not necessarily to reproduce an entire machine. A learner might only need a physical representation of the component being handled. That object could provide some of the tactile experience associated with the real task while the remainder of the simulation remains digital.
For organizations training people on expensive, specialized, or geographically difficult-to-access equipment, this could create an entirely different approach to practice. The progression might begin with traditional knowledge transfer, move into a digital simulation, advance into a virtual environment, and eventually incorporate physical elements where they meaningfully improve the learning experience.
The discussion of 3D printing leads Walter and Barrientos into another dimension of learning: the role of physical interaction.
Walter connects the idea to an earlier Training Impact Podcast conversation about LEGO Serious Play. In that example, a facilitator discovered that simply giving participants something tactile to manipulate during a traditionally disengaging compliance session significantly changed the learning environment. Participants became more engaged, interacted with one another, asked more questions, and paid greater attention to the material.
LEGO Serious Play takes that concept further by making physical construction part of the learning process itself. Rather than simply handling an object while learning, participants build representations of ideas and use those physical models to support thinking and discussion.
The connection to Grasply is particularly interesting because AI and tactile learning might initially appear to exist at opposite ends of the training spectrum. One is associated with digital automation, while the other is grounded in physical interaction. The conversation suggests that the future may involve combining them rather than choosing between them.
Barrientos points to handwriting as another familiar example. Writing with a pen requires different physical activity than typing on a keyboard. The discussion connects that manual engagement with the larger idea that human learning has always involved physical interaction with the environment.
For L&D leaders, this raises an important design question. As training becomes increasingly digital, how much of the physical dimension of learning can be preserved or intentionally reintroduced?
AI-generated simulations, virtual reality, physical controls, and inexpensive 3D-printed components could eventually give organizations more options for doing exactly that.
The broader significance of Grasply is not simply that artificial intelligence can create simulations faster. It is that faster simulation development may change where organizations can afford to use practice.
Historically, simulation has often been reserved for situations where the cost or risk clearly justified the investment. Pilots, medical professionals, equipment operators, and other high-stakes roles have obvious reasons to practice in simulated environments. Building those environments, however, can require significant time, technical expertise, and financial investment.
Generative AI changes part of that equation.
If existing SOPs, manuals, methodologies, transcripts, and organizational documents can become source material for simulations, practice becomes more attainable for a wider range of training needs.
A sales team can rehearse objections. A manager can practice a difficult conversation. A new employee can work through a procedure. A technician can become familiar with the sequence for operating a device before gaining access to the physical equipment.
The existing course, manual, video, or presentation still has a role because learners need foundational knowledge. What changes is what happens next.
Instead of assuming that knowledge will automatically become performance, organizations can create a structured bridge between the two.
That may ultimately be one of the most practical applications of AI in learning and development. The technology does not have to replace the existing training program. It can help fill a gap the existing program has historically struggled to address at scale.
The conversation between Walter and Barrientos also provides a useful reminder that learning innovation should begin with the problem rather than the technology.
Grasply’s starting point is not AI itself. It is the knowing-doing gap.
Repetition matters because people forget. Practice matters because knowing how something should be done is different from being able to perform it. Immediate feedback matters because learners need to understand mistakes while they are actively working through the task. Simulation matters because real-world practice can be expensive, difficult to coordinate, or inappropriate for someone who is still developing competence.
AI becomes valuable because it can make those learning principles easier to operationalize.
That is an important distinction for training leaders evaluating the growing number of AI tools entering the market. The most meaningful question is not whether a learning program uses artificial intelligence. It is whether the technology solves a real instructional or performance problem.
For Grasply, that problem is application.
The ability to transform organizational knowledge into repeatable simulations creates an opportunity to give learners more chances to practice before performance matters. As simulation technology advances, those experiences could incorporate richer virtual environments and eventually physical components that increase fidelity without requiring every learner to travel to a centralized training facility.
The Grasply episode ultimately brings the conversation about artificial intelligence in learning back to a fundamental truth: people learn to do things by doing them.
Organizations still need courses, documents, videos, SOPs, instructors, and other mechanisms for transferring knowledge. Learners must understand concepts before they can apply them effectively. But knowledge alone does not guarantee performance, particularly when the learner has limited opportunities to practice or when months can pass before an uncommon procedure must be recalled.
Simulation provides a bridge.
By combining cognitive science with generative AI, Grasply is exploring how organizations can turn existing knowledge into practice environments that can be repeated, assessed, and refined. Today, those environments can support conversations and digital operational processes. Tomorrow, they may increasingly incorporate virtual environments, physical controls, and AI-generated 3D components.
For L&D leaders, the opportunity is not simply to create more content faster. It is to reconsider what happens after the content has been delivered.
If AI can help organizations provide scalable practice alongside scalable knowledge transfer, training can move closer to its ultimate objective: helping people perform successfully when it matters.
Visit Grasply: https://www.grasply.ai/
For more from the Training Impact Podcast, follow us on Social Media – https://t-sml.mtrbio.com/public/smartlink/trainingimpactpodcast
Training Impact Podcast Lego Serious Play Episode
Jeff Walter (00:05)
Hi, I’m Jeff Walter and welcome back to the Training Impact Podcast, where we explore scaling performance through training infrastructure. My guest today is Armando Barrientos. He’s the founder and CEO of Grasply, where he’s helping organizations use AI to transform knowledge into engaging, scalable learning experiences. We’ll discuss how artificial intelligence is reshaping knowledge sharing, onboarding, and workplace enablement, and what learning leaders need to know to stay ahead. Armando,
Welcome to the program.
Ed (00:33)
Thank you very much, F, for having me.
Jeff Walter (00:36)
And so as my listeners know, I’m always interested in the in the path that somebody that people take. you you founded Grassplay, so help me out help us understand how did how did that come about? What were you doing beforehand and why Grassplay? And and for the audience, what is Grasply more specifically and and and how why did you start it?
Ed (00:56)
Perfect, yes. This is being around 20 years journey. I started in my home country, Chile. Actually, I started in schools. That was my first experience with learning, K to 12, I mean, schools. So I started with helping teachers, helping students to understand, of course, topics.
Pretty exciting times there. I founded a company. That’s around 20 years ago. And something that I started to get obsessed with is how people learn. In general, not just kids, but adults, you know. How to learn is across ages. entire theory behind this.
And then I kind of get tired about that specific segment. I started thinking because my company grew. How can I teach my employees how they can start applying, right? Real stuff, not just concepts, know, concept is kind of easy to transfer that knowledge, but how they can apply the knowledge. So
That is how GraspBli started. That’s an idea as much companies as much endeavors, an idea how to transfer effectively knowledge into doing. That is an important part for an organization.
Jeff Walter (02:26)
And and so you started twenty years ago, so congratulations on the longevity. you know, be
Ed (02:31)
Yeah
Jeff Walter (02:32)
being around for two decades is is quite an accomplishment, so congratulations. And and you and you when you started you were in Chile and
Ed (02:39)
That’s right in Chile, that’s right.
Jeff Walter (02:41)
and and and and and where does Grassplay operate now? Are you still based in Chile or or how how’s how’s that how’s how have you expanded over the last twenty years?
Ed (02:52)
Yeah, that was the beginning. So after 10 years in the business, I wanted to be part of a bigger pond, let’s say. So I was thinking about the US. the US could be a great place to start my next endeavor. Because, know, small countries, they got, yeah, great stuff. But also, the market is not.
eager to get innovation generally. So I started this journey. I’m in the United States right now, 40 years ago now. This company, roughly, it is based in the United States.
Jeff Walter (03:30)
So so Grasp so you you and and do you still have operations in Chile or do you still have that the company operating down there or you now mainly the
Ed (03:38)
Yeah, is. Yeah,
that is the old companies is still there, but I’m not operating. I’m not in the day to day of that company.
Jeff Walter (03:45)
Right.
Ed (03:45)
And of course, a lot of networks are in there. So some customers of the grasp, we are Gillian companies, but main operation of the main goal is US.
Jeff Walter (03:58)
So w if you don’t mind me asking, what do you s I’m always interested from an international standpoint, different countries operate in different ways. You kind of touched on a little from a learning and development standpoint, w what what have you seen as the difference between the two countries in terms of the industry, the willingness to learn?
Just just you know, like if compare and contrast, you know, because we I I we I talked to a lot of US based companies and they’re trying to expand internationally. And you
know, you run
Ed (04:27)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (04:28)
into a lot of you know culture I’d say you know, cultural norms or differences of doing business or differences of just behaving in the marketplace. So you know, I was interested in in trying to learn more about
the compare you know, if you if you kinda look at the two,
Ed (04:43)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (04:45)
like what works in the US but doesn’t work in Chile and and vice versa, right? What works well
Ed (04:51)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (04:51)
there. And just just trying to get a sense of the the the you know, for folks that might be looking at expanding their horizons. Or or folks coming
Ed (04:59)
Yeah, good question.
Jeff Walter (05:01)
coming from South America to the US, right?
Ed (05:05)
That’s right, yeah, cultural differences are a lot. I would say that the core from our learning and development perspective, it is the same. They have the same issues, the same problems. But I’d say that tools don’t necessarily are the same. In the United States, it’s much more developed. All of the tools available, because innovation is much more…
important, is much more feasible even. You can innovate because you have a lot of people basically, the rules are pretty clear, you can innovate, can start doing your companies. In countries like Chile and South America in general you have small countries, Chile for example 20 million.
So you don’t have that space to innovate. If you want to go to Mexico, it’s a completely different story from even an administrative point of view. You have to start a new company. Laws are different. So recommendations from going from the United States to Latin America a lot, but I would say every country is a different story. You have to have…
Different country managers or people in charge of different countries culturally, maybe we speak the same language Spanish or Portuguese in Brazilian case but Different cultures even so it is I’d say it is hard Maybe the opposite going from Latin America to the United States of course on unique challenges like
For example, in Latin America, are accustomed to, it is familiar to do a lot, offer different services for the same segment. And here it’s important to focus to narrow down specific offering to specific segment, for example. And that’s important from going from South America to here, the United States.
Jeff Walter (07:05)
So
I i it sounds to me like that’s also a function of the size of the market, right? Like if you have a smaller market, there’s fewer players, so the players are actually covering a larger set of services, let’s say. Whereas in a larger market you have to specialize more t so that you can differentiate yourself from the other the the competition as it were. Yeah, there’s there’s a lot Yeah.
Ed (07:27)
For the players, that’s right.
Jeff Walter (07:31)
So that’s really that’s interesting. So so let’s talk about Grassplay. So so you’ve been in business for a long time and and but Grassplay really and what I found fascinating, one of the reasons I want to have you on the f on the on the on the show, as we talked about early on, is is is an AI focused company, AI in learning. So so
Ed (07:50)
right to us.
Jeff Walter (07:52)
what have you built there and and w why do clients
Well well just tell us about the the platform and what what it does and then what are trul clients trying to achieve when they engage you guys.
Ed (08:04)
Perfect, yeah. All this starting from our vision, our vision is to close the gap between the knowing and the doing. That’s the gap that we involved with. So our customers, issues that they have, it is pretty well known. For example, they…
develop, they deploy content to their people, but that content doesn’t necessarily become application and in doing, we have SOPs for example. An SOP, if you explain an SOP, it won’t necessarily become applied knowledge. So that is a big gap. There are multiple…
research about this is what is taught, there is around 70 to 80 % will be lost in the following three months. So this is
Jeff Walter (09:00)
Yeah.
Ed (09:00)
the forgetting curve. So that’s a big struggle. And if we put that in numbers in, I don’t know, 400 billion industry, that’s a lot of money that is being…
for own away because of this. So this
Jeff Walter (09:17)
Yeah. that’s it.
Ed (09:18)
is the main problem.
Jeff Walter (09:20)
So so that so that’s interesting. So you let me let me understand if I if I so the research I I think what you just said, I just want to make sure I understand what you said is the research shows that even if I send if I create a s training for an SOP or some type of process or something within I think you said three months, you lose
like you
Ed (09:41)
Yeah, three months. There are several
studies, but that’s the kind of rush.
Jeff Walter (09:45)
Yeah, with within three months the learner forgets seventy to eighty percent of of of that. I guess that tie would tie into you know on the learning doing gap. I guess my as I’m thinking about that, I’m like, wow, that’s a lot. But then I guess that makes sense if you’re not immediately applying that knowledge, right? Or or if or if a lot of that knowledge is not
Because I think you fall into the eighty twenty thing too, even if you’re applying that knowledge right away, like you know, how to operate a certain piece of machinery. You know, you only need twenty percent of the knowledge to operate it eighty percent of the time, and the other eighty percent of the knowledge is for all the exceptions. You know, and then you don’t have
Ed (10:24)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (10:25)
that exception for six months and you forgot what you’re supposed to do. Like like
Ed (10:29)
Hehe
Jeff Walter (10:30)
so it’s basically then the training is important but it has a retention issue. Is is that is that w is that the right way to think about it?
Ed (10:38)
Yes,
yeah of course and it is because our brains got that restraint and that is where cognitive science enters the game. That is why it is important to go to the root of this. Why, what is this happening? This global effect that I’m mentioning, it got a brain restriction, it comes from a brain restriction. is…
in order for us to learn, we need constant repetition, for example. And that’s a fact. This is learning science. There are several principles around there that add up to making people to learn faster application, you name it. It is important if you don’t apply,
You cannot learn to ride a bicycle for example, watching how the other guy is doing it. You have to do it by yourself.
Jeff Walter (11:31)
Mm-hmm.
So so on the neuro i i is that does that have to do with the pathways? The the the the brain building pathways to you know for knowledge and and and applic and application and doing? I’m just thinking the the knowing doing. You know, and so so
Ed (11:46)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (11:48)
the the the repetition is it the the repetition strengthens those pathways? Is that the idea?
from the science standpoint.
Ed (11:56)
And yeah,
from a neuroscientist point of view, internally our brains are always producing new connections, maybe not necessarily new neurons, but connections always, even when we are getting older, new connections are being produced. And yes, when we repeat, kind of the brain says, hmm.
Maybe this is important for us, for survival maybe. So,
Jeff Walter (12:21)
Uh-huh.
Ed (12:22)
okay, maybe let’s strengthen this path, these new connections. So yes, it is related.
Jeff Walter (12:31)
So so okay, so now how does Grassplay address that issue, right? So so I you
Ed (12:35)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (12:36)
you stated the problem. The problem is I go to training, I learn something, I might even do it a couple of times, right? You know, if it’s a hands-on instructor led training, I might actually do it, which is better than not doing it. And and but but so how does Grassplay address that issue?
Ed (12:55)
I will add one more cognitive principle to connect with your question. We have the repetition part and also we have another principle that is our brains don’t differentiate between what is real from what is not real. So for example if we have
The F1 example, Formula 1 for drivers, they use simulations as crazy. And their brains, what is the principle? Their brains doesn’t differentiate between, this is a real track, this is the real cars between the simulation from the real stuff. So, Graspley is taking advantage of those two cognitive science principles.
Because, okay, we need repetition, but the simulation must be as much as approachable to the reality of not as much as approachable. There is a concept of the cognitive functionality. If the cognitive functionality is similar to what they apply to reality, that will work. There is an example, I think we talked this weeks ago. It is about…
People that are driving a forklift and
Jeff Walter (14:09)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (14:09)
they work in beverage distribution and they have to in a good way or in efficient way they have to put the cases, the boxes into a pallet like the Tetris game.
Jeff Walter (14:23)
Right.
Ed (14:24)
So one way to train these people
with repetition is to use a real forklift. That’s okay. But that’s expensive. So there are ways to do or to produce the same new path based in our brains using a little palette like a Lego, using little cases like Legos, and you do it by hand.
you are using the same cognitive process as if you could have done this in a real forklift. And that’s a simulation. Even if it’s a simulation using it in a screen, in a computer, that’s a simulation because your brain is using the same operations internally.
Jeff Walter (15:10)
So okay, so let’s just d if we just focus on that second principle, what what what I think I heard you said is the first principle being repetition creates pathways
Ed (15:21)
competition. That’s it.
Jeff Walter (15:22)
and then strengthens pathways. And the when you were saying that, the the analogy that went on in my head or the metaphor in my head is at first it’s a cow path, then it’s a road,
Ed (15:33)
You
Jeff Walter (15:34)
then it’s a highway, right? Like with the repetition.
Ed (15:38)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (15:38)
but then the second
thing is you said the brain doesn’t know the difference between simulation and reality. Right? It just it so
Ed (15:46)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (15:47)
and and when you said that the the thing that jumped to my mind is like, that’s why you get you jump back into movie theater when when there’s a scare when something pops out on the screen, right? The the the the the
Ed (15:57)
That’s right, yeah. That’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (16:02)
the the villain
jumps out of nowhere. You know you’re in a movie theater, you know you’re in a seat, and you know and you you know your
Ed (16:07)
You
Jeff Walter (16:09)
rational mind knows all that, but you still have the reaction of because you you’re you’re
Ed (16:15)
That’s what it says.
Jeff Walter (16:16)
startled just slight you know, so it it’s that same like that is is that an example of what you’re talking about? The brain the brain
Ed (16:24)
That’s a great
example. Yeah, an example of our daily lives, of course. even we have the rational part of this, still our brains are our brains from the reptilian ages, I don’t know. So yeah, that’s the fact that grasply or those effects are what grasply takes. basically grasply taking these two, there are other cognitive science principles in there, but they are the main two.
Graspy generate simulations with as much as cognitive fidelity as possible to make it much real possible. Not necessarily it must be like a 3D, no, it’s the operation, the cognitive fidelity operationally, like the palette that I mentioned.
Grassroots generated simulations using organizational knowledge, your SOPs, using your transcripts, knowledge, your documents that you have. And we have internally an AI assistant that takes all of this information and in less than 10 minutes, for example, you can generate a simulation. You can generate a simulation for practicing a real conversation with a customer or a potential
customer using your SOPs for that, using your methodology, your processes, your product knowledge, your offering knowledge. So that is what we do at BrassBand.
Jeff Walter (17:47)
So so you start with the source material, the like the standard operating procedures or the playbook or or or some some type of somehow that tribal knowledge gets digitized somehow, right? Like in an SOP. Then if and then it you you put it through grasply and you create a simulation of that. So what would some examples of that be in practical terms?
That you’re that like w like what your c
Ed (18:12)
I’ve got to this.
Jeff Walter (18:14)
well, your clients, what do they generally use that for? Is a better way of asking the question.
Ed (18:18)
Mainly for sales training, onboarding,
Jeff Walter (18:21)
Okay.
Ed (18:22)
new reps. They don’t know much about the product, about handling objections. So they start practicing handling objections after reading. Of course, in order to apply, have to know before. That is
Jeff Walter (18:39)
Right.
Ed (18:39)
another principle. You have to know, these are the objection handling stuff.
They use for that for a little leadership development. How to manage difficult conversations with your people. For example, how to fire somebody or how to… There is somebody that is sharing specific information like a password and they and he or she…
sharing this and you have to have those difficult conversations, you don’t have to do this. But for all the spectrum you can apply this where you have conversations with people. That’s one use case with different sub-use cases.
Jeff Walter (19:23)
So so mo mo you know most of your clients are using it for s s for sales training? Like that that would be the top thing they’re using it for? And yeah.
Ed (19:31)
would say yes, but
because this is kind of the must, the law of hanging fruit that is existing right now, but we’re getting much customers simulating operational devices, for example, in the medical industry, how to
Jeff Walter (19:49)
Okay.
Ed (19:49)
operate a specific device. So before going to the real scenario with a real patient,
practice this in a simulation you have your console there and you got for example an urgency how you will approach this so you start kind of fine-tuning the different parts that you need to do checking here, checking there and that’s getting that’s getting attention to do that because what is the other way is you have the manual
for that device. This
Jeff Walter (20:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ed (20:22)
is manual and then in real life there is some specialist must travel maybe across the United States to teach to do that but they are not applying the operation of that device. So that is something that is getting traction.
Jeff Walter (20:41)
So so going back to what you said earlier, then, because you said first you have to know, and
Ed (20:46)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (20:46)
and then the problem right now is that we train people on the knowing, and within a few months they lose most of that knowledge. And we have a hard time with the doing because traditionally that you know take takes a lot of human t interaction, right? And but now we can simulate
Ed (21:02)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (21:04)
that, use AI.
What Grasper does is use AI to create those simulations. So
Ed (21:08)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (21:10)
so we can do digital simulations in high fidelity. And and that allows us to practice and get feedback. I always think of the difference between knowing and doing.
People always ask, well, what does that really mean? In my in my brain, it’s like getting your driver’s license. First, you have to pass the written
Ed (21:26)
Hehe.
Jeff Walter (21:27)
test so that you know what that red octagon means. You know what that
Ed (21:32)
You
Jeff Walter (21:32)
little yellow line in the middle of the street means. You you know all these things. And then you have to t do the driver’s test, where you actually have to demonstrate that you can operate the vehicle safely on the road. Right. And you and in order to prepare for that, you and your best friend or you and your parents or you and
You and somebody that knows what they’re already doing goes into a parking lot and practices a bunch of times. And that so, you know, if I if I if I understand where Grasply would work well is you do the first thing the way you might traditionally do it, however that is, e learning, videos, in person, whatever it is, but then Grasplay has the AI generated simulation.
to apply that knowledge and do it over and over and over again so that you can solidify those neural pathways and turn them from cow paths to at least solid roads,
Ed (22:21)
Mm-hmm
Jeff Walter (22:23)
you know, secondary roads, if not highways. Is that is that a good way of thinking of it?
Ed (22:28)
This
is an excellent way actually yeah driver license you need the concepts you need
Jeff Walter (22:36)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (22:37)
to understand what is going on like yeah you we have this test at the beginning yeah so and that’s why Raspberry is
It’s a compliment with the current infrastructure because still we need to transfer concepts. Without
Jeff Walter (22:54)
Right.
Ed (22:55)
concepts we cannot move forward into application. There is no way. So having those videos, documents that we have, PowerPoint maybe or whatever it is right now, it is required. Then…
it comes grasply with the application through simulation. yeah, that’s a perfect example. It’s like grasply, we are not doing that, but it’s generating like a driving simulator.
Jeff Walter (23:22)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (23:23)
We are not in that business of course, the driving simulator, but that is part of the example.
Jeff Walter (23:28)
Yeah. So so now the the the platform on the on the sales, I just want to understand a little bet better because when you brought up the medical device, I thought that was really interesting. So like on the sales side, you know, I’m assuming that simulator is more of a you know an a a a talking avatar, right? Like like it like the avatar
Ed (23:50)
That’s why it’s this.
Jeff Walter (23:53)
is a prospect
It’s been configured to behave in a certain way. Maybe it’s a tire kicker, maybe it’s an maybe it’s a ornery prospect with a lot of objections. but it’s it’s it’s of a certain prospect type. And you’re inter and as a sales person, you’re interacting with it. And and then and and then based on your interaction, there’s you know, some type of grading or or
you know, against some type of protocol, right? But when you talk about the medical device, that seems like a completely different type of simulation. So is that ha like ha h help us help me understand how that works. Like I get the I get the I get the avatar, you know
And it could be sales, it could be dealing with a difficult employee or dealing with a difficult boss, like interpersonal skills, right? Where you’re dealing with another I like that that I can see clearly how an SOP can turn into a you know, which which is actually actually I’m I’m sorry, I got stomachs or something. It’s actually flipping amazing that that is something that I can get my head around.
Because five, ten years ago that would have just been pow right? And now it’s like you’re go and I’m going, Okay, yep, I I can see that I’ve seen avatars, you know, and and you can interact with them. And so that makes but what does a simulation look like when you talk about the medical device companies? ‘Cause that’s that’s that sounds different. That there you’re not talking to another y you know, you an avatar. It or are you, or how does that work?
What does that look like?
Ed (25:36)
Yeah, it’s much better to see than explain, but I do my best here. But let’s put an example of a coffee machine. A coffee machine that is a simple device. So in this case, have in this simulation, is you have a visualization, not necessarily of the coffee machine, but the operation, the buttons, the…
different features or mechanisms of the coffee machine. Of course, you won’t be using your hands. That’s where we want to go, but not yet. Digitally
Jeff Walter (26:05)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (26:07)
clicking the mouse or maybe some keys on your keyboard. This still could be a guided simulation where you have a code that will be guiding you.
So…
Jeff Walter (26:17)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Ed (26:18)
You can have that first approach with this guiding simulation where in order to do that you have to open the valve maybe so you have to do this first, second step is this, you have to do, I don’t know, open this box and then check this indicator and you have a guided version of this. Instead of reading a manual you have a coach that is
Jeff Walter (26:43)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Ed (26:43)
avatar that is guiding
you through the operation of the device of the coffee machine in this case and then you have the non-guided version where you have to do this by yourself and you’re kind of assessed and you mentioned something important yeah and all of this simulation there is an assessment because there is another principle that in me that feedback is
It’s much better than a delayed feedback for example. So you have, I pressed the wrong button here. I should have pressed this first. So you got a real time feedback of that in these simulations.
Jeff Walter (27:16)
Okay.
So so on if we look at the medical device or the coffee machine thing, as you were explaining it, the image that came to my mind was like you know, having been in a a digital escape room, right? Like, you know, I’ve
Ed (27:31)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (27:32)
I’ve I’ve played with that in the past. well you know, as opposed to a real escape room, right?
And and you’re sitting there going, let me, you know, click on the cabinet to see what’s in the cabinet, click on this to see what’s under the rug, the avatar and then whether that’s guided by an avatar or you’re on your own, I can get but is it kinda like like when you talked about the coffee, is that the right imagery to kind of
Like here’s a coffee pot. The first thing I need to do is open this, then I need to pour water in, then I I need to, you know, press this over here to grind the beans, and then I do this, and then I do that, and then I push this button and it brew like like to follow a process or something. Is is is it kind of like say the digital escape room? Like you’re you’re clicking on things to make it do stuff. Is that is that the right way of thinking of it?
Ed (28:21)
Yes, that’s the right thing.
Jeff Walter (28:24)
Okay.
Ed (28:24)
Maybe you don’t have the picture of that specific machine, but you have the operation. That is the important part. But yeah, you describe this perfectly. This is the way
Jeff Walter (28:32)
Okay.
Ed (28:32)
to interact with the digital version, the, let’s say, digital twin of the real coffee machine, for example.
Jeff Walter (28:40)
Well
and it and it’s kinda like what you said earlier. It’s like, okay, the question is how much what’d you use the word fidelity, I think you used? It how how how
Ed (28:48)
Yeah, the cognitive reality, that’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (28:49)
high is the fidelity of the simulation? But even if it’s like the Legos to the yeah, the higher fidelity the better, but even if it’s low fidelity
you’re able to strengthen those neural pathways by going through the process. Right. Like when you talked about the Legos and the and the high low, you know, learning how to stack things. Well, you know, using your hands and little Lego things that look you know can build those pathways, you don’t have to be, you know, and it’s that would be say a low fidelity model, right? or maybe a high fidelity or mod me it’s yeah.
Ed (29:24)
Yeah, my idea. They decided to arrange the
room.
Jeff Walter (29:27)
But
but so that’s really so that’s really cool. You know, because I I’ve talked to other fo I’ve talked to other
Ed (29:32)
Yeah, it is.
Jeff Walter (29:34)
folks that do the avat that can do the av that where they have the avatar and it’s amazing that like first off I just want to say that’s amazing just to start with. It really is. and and I’m so excited about that and I and I think that’s probably you know what I’m seeing in my clients in that
as they start to slowly adapt AI is like they can kind of get their hands around the interpersonal skills on the things like you talked about sales training inter you know in recruiters interviewing people
managers dealing with different types of employees that or employees that have different situations that need to handle be handled in a certain way. you know all these y interpersonal interactions. and and and and but when we get to that next step of taking something in the physical world, I I
I’ve seen them, but they’re very
They’re very difficult to build. You know, and I’m just saying going, huh. If you’re able to like that’s I think that’s really freaking that’s really amaz like very, very cool if you can take a an SOP and and which may or may not have images in it.
Right. Like, you know, this is how you change the oil. And it shows you first, you know, you
Ed (30:56)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (30:57)
you you take the oil plug out and here’s a picture of the oil plug, right? Like generic oil plug at the bottom of an engine. you know, and and here’s the oil filter, generic you know. And then it
Like I’m envisioning that it’s taking all that, including some of the the the visuals, and then creating a digital environment for you to go, okay, I’m now presented with the oil plug, the oil filter,
Ed (31:22)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (31:23)
where I where I add the oil. the process is you know, do this, take the plug out, drain it, change the filter, put the plug back in.
fill fill it up with oil, right? and so that’s a process. And I’m picturing this simulation where it’s got all these, say, images, and I’m going, well first do this and then do this and then do this and then like I I think that and and then you can have an avatar take you through that. That that’s really that’s really, really cool. I’ve had a couple we’ve had a couple of clients that are medical device manufacturers. And that that was always one of the that’s one of the hardest things for them.
Because these are high stakes, this is high stakes training. Right? You know, you know, we had one
Ed (32:04)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (32:06)
client that did robotic sur equipment for brain surgery, right? Another one is LASIK surgery, you can mess up pretty bad. and you know, and so and so
Ed (32:14)
What was that?
Jeff Walter (32:17)
you when you got to that part, it was always manual hands on, you know.
But the but the ability to actually get there or they built simulations and they they were very expensive to build. so the ability to get a that first tier of simulation out of your SOPs is just incredible. That is so cool. That’s really cool.
Ed (32:37)
It is, yeah, actually it is cool to get this simulation from manual to build this digital twin version of that device
Jeff Walter (32:44)
Yeah.
Ed (32:45)
and for training purposes that’s that is the simulation for and you mentioned something important what about the physical aspect of this and actually that’s where we want to go to go further
is to go physical and sometimes is how to build maybe in a 3D printer how to produce the sensations of getting something physical so how to build this coffee machine with a 3D printer and start feeling pushing buttons but that’s coming that’s the future but because yeah we’re constrained right now in the digital world and
that fidelity, it is good, it is better than nothing. It is better than just reading a manual, what I have to do right now. But next stage, it is going into the physical world.
Jeff Walter (33:38)
That’s real that’s huh.
That’s it that’s really cool. That’s well
Ed (33:43)
Hahahaha
Jeff Walter (33:45)
well no, you know, it’s on I w I was at a conference and Napa is working with create Napa accelerator and they’re they’re trying to create s using meta goggles and little paddle thingies. take the yo
t train you know the they’re they they’ve got sixty trainings for particular things
Ed (34:06)
Okay.
Jeff Walter (34:07)
like doing a brake job, changing oil, things that we just, you know, and they’re and they’re taking and they’re taking from the physical to the the virtual using ver you know VR and and that because getting the physical out to the learner and managing all that is you know difficult and expensive.
Right. It’s usually the learner has
Ed (34:28)
That’s it.
Jeff Walter (34:29)
to come to the physical, right? And and that means travel and boarding and and and time away from working and blah, blah, blah, blah. But I you you you just said something I I I haven’t heard anybody talk about yet, which is really cool, is if you could and and I think it goes back to your your Legos thing. Yeah, it’s like you don’t
Ed (34:49)
Yeah, that’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (34:51)
have to have a whole engine, let’s say. You can do a little piece.
And can
Ed (34:56)
That’s it.
Jeff Walter (34:58)
huh. And then just pr and then use a three D printer to just create a inexpensive physical simulation of the thing you’re doing, whatever that is.
Ed (35:09)
That’s right. That’s the idea and generate
Jeff Walter (35:11)
Huh.
Ed (35:12)
it from AI to generate the 3D components. That is where we’re heading to. Of course, we need to establish all of these digital parts first and that is where we want to go.
Jeff Walter (35:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, but that’s I I c I think that I ha that is really that’s really interesting. Like I’m I’m you’ve got my brain spinning on that. You know. Well well first off, I like I said, like I I I’m just finding the whole evolution of using AI and the tools and and and other tools like VR and and now Virt and and and
And dig 3D printers, like it it’s just it’s just mind-blowing. Like so the the the idea that you could take those SOPs and then create a digital simulated environment that could that that at least takes you from learning with no doing to some level of doing at some level of fidelity, right? And being able to do that using and using AI to do that.
So that it can be done in a you can create it quickly and inexpensively and deliver it inexpensively, right? Relative to the alternatives. is really like that’s very cool in its own right. But now you just got my brain going down this whole 3D printer thing. I’m like, huh. Like even if you like you even if you did it all that and then you printed out the part that you were trying to do or what it looks like.
Ed (36:44)
Yes, and the intermediate step could be the virtual one. is the intermediate. Generate all of these virtual worlds, 3D. That is the intermediate part. Even from there, we can start generating the physical stuff, like feeling. For example, there are…
This is a game and you have a pinball station with different pinballs.
Jeff Walter (37:10)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (37:10)
You have actually, you can have like a controller, a console. This is physical and you use your virtual glasses, your VR.
Jeff Walter (37:20)
Yeah, the V the V R, yep.
Ed (37:23)
But you’re feeling like a real pinball.
Jeff Walter (37:28)
Yeah.
Ed (37:30)
But you have different games because it is mixing reality with the virtual and that’s an intermediate side and that’s cool too.
Jeff Walter (37:40)
Well, yeah, well,
especially when you start talking about medical devices, right? Like I’m j I’m I’m just cueing on that for a second. You’ve got the you know, cause these you know, like the the clients I’m thinking of, I mean, these machines are big and expensive, right? So to get your hands
Ed (37:57)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (37:58)
on the controls, y you know, I have to go to the health center. And
Ed (38:04)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (38:05)
and by the way, you know
If it’s not being used for actual surgery, right? I yeah, just to get my fingers on it. But the idea that you could kind of
have that digital simulation from an SOP and then print off like the scalpel or the the the device that the surgeon would hold which you may or may you know which you may or may not be able to incorporate into the simulation but just even to tactily feel the thing
Ed (38:32)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (38:33)
it’s like huh that’s I it’s it’s
Ed (38:36)
Yeah, in that
way we are improving, we are enhancing this fidelity. That’s idea.
Jeff Walter (38:41)
Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. Like I could I could almost see like taking it going, okay. just just talking about say a s a a a laser scalpel or a laser like printing it off and using it to point to you know, if you had a touch screen, using using it to touch things, right? I mean you could use your
Ed (39:01)
Yes.
Jeff Walter (39:02)
mouse and touch, touch, touch, but print off the and then you get the tactile sense of I’m holding
And then when you actually are with the physical actual machine, you’ve already got some tactile memory, which goes back to everything you said, right? Like like that open that that that helps s you know, pave that cow path, right? You know, which which the other thing I love about the tactile, if I can I’m sorry, I’m just you got my brain going all over the place. So I’m just so I
Ed (39:31)
No please, it’s just a idea yeah?
Jeff Walter (39:35)
So I interviewed a a woman a while ago and she was geez, I’m gonna for what was it? It was Legos. serious play, that’s what it was. So twenty ten, twenty years ago,
Ed (39:46)
serious placement.
Jeff Walter (39:48)
when you know, Legos used to just be blocks and then Lego came out with kits. And so the Lego corporation was in the middle of like, how do we sell more Legos and they
They came up with all the different things. One of the things they researched, I and this woman was a certified instructor in this, was
Using Legos and doing tactile stuff actually helps you learn regardless doing anything tactile helps you learn what you’re learning regardless of what you’re doing. So that this this this woman, it was fascinating. She had read all of this stuff. This is before she became a certified instructor, and she was giving like a compliance course to a bunch of sales guys at some conference for two days. And you know, rooms dark.
Got the PowerPoint up on the screen. Everybody’s on their
Ed (40:34)
Mm-hmm
Jeff Walter (40:35)
phones. Everybody’s on their computers. None of these salespeople care about what she’s saying about compliance. And then at night that night, she went out and bought a whole bunch of those little play-doh. She’d been reading about this that tactile increases your absorption.
Ed (40:51)
The talk time, okay.
Jeff Walter (40:52)
And she went out and bought a bunch of little cans of play-doh. And she put them on everybody’s desk. You know, everybody’s seat.
And when they came in, she’s like, that’s just something I picked up. You know, feel free to play while we’re talking about this. Well, she goes on to day two of compliance training for salespeople at a conference. So, you know, it’s also day two. So they were out the night before, right? She said her engagement went through the roof. They they they started playing with the
Ed (41:18)
Wow,
Jeff Walter (41:21)
she goes, do whatever you want with it. I don’t care. But everybody had one color, right?
Ed (41:25)
Hmm
Jeff Walter (41:26)
And so
people started making stuff. They turned to the they turned to their neighbor and like, hey, can you give me some of your your blue? yeah, here’s some of my green. And and they’re making just whatever the heck they wanted to make. It had nothing to do with the training. But instead of being on their phones and and and and or just zoning out, they’re they’re they were doing
Ed (41:43)
Interesting, yes
Jeff Walter (41:46)
something tactile and they absorbed not only they were much more
Ed (41:51)
Wow.
Jeff Walter (41:51)
engaged, they were listening to what she was saying.
They were asking more questions. She said the level of engagement went through the roof. And then after that, she she focused on this Lego serious play. And in Lego Series Play, you actually use the Lego as part of the training
Ed (42:08)
Mmm.
Jeff Walter (42:09)
to represent things you’re doing. It kind of builds on that doing anything tactile. Basically, the theory there, the cognitive theory was when you do anything tactile, it opens up your the the
the the neuron, you know,
Ed (42:23)
Wow.
Jeff Walter (42:23)
it’s opening up your brain to absorbing information because you’re learning, because you’re you’re touching. And so even though they were like making silly figures and faces and asking
Ed (42:29)
or talking gas.
Jeff Walter (42:34)
their neighbor for the blue and the green and the brown, you know, their brains opened up and they’re absorbing more and they were more engaged. And then the Lego series play takes that to the next level and uses the Lego in in yo, you know,
Do me a build to represent your, you know, next year’s strategic plan. Which sounds really s like, what do you mean? Use Lego to express my but
Ed (42:58)
you
Jeff Walter (42:59)
anyway, it’s really interesting when you talked about the 3D. Yeah. Well, so when you started talking
Ed (43:01)
Interesting,
Jeff Walter (43:04)
about the 3D printing, it just like that just came flying into my head, that conversation I had with her. I’ll I’ll have to make sure we have a link to that
Ed (43:11)
Wow, that’s…
Jeff Walter (43:13)
the episode in the show notes. I forget the exact episode. But
It’s the the whole premise there, and it goes back to cognitive science, was if you’re doing anything physical with your hands, anything tactile, you abs you just absorb much more. And then if you could take that tactile and apply it to
Ed (43:31)
Wow, that’s great.
Jeff Walter (43:35)
you know, and then that’s so that’s like you know, this level,
Ed (43:37)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (43:38)
and then if you could you know, for those you know, my hand’s low.
yeah, so you go from zero to to five, and then if that tactile thing can be applied to the training, you go to ten, right? Like boom. And so what I love about your idea of the 3D printing, and I you know, I I don’t know exactly, you know, the the is rather than using something generic like Play Doh, like Allego,
Ed (44:02)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (44:03)
you could actually print something related to the training.
Ed (44:07)
the training.
Jeff Walter (44:07)
The the and and
and even if it’s digital training and you’re not in a classroom, it it’s it it gives you something tactile which would open up the the the pathways to absorb more knowledge
Ed (44:20)
interesting, Yes.
Jeff Walter (44:24)
and like I just I like when you said that my brain just went on fire like it just went, my gosh. Imagine that you could easily print something that was
Ed (44:26)
That’s great. Yes.
Jeff Walter (44:32)
actually like like
It’s still the example, but like the going back to what we were talking about. Yeah.
Ed (44:36)
No, pretty powerful, yes. Even if
the cognitive ability is not adding so much, but because of that cognitive effect, it is not related. It is improving the grasp of new knowledge, new concept. That’s incredible, yeah.
Jeff Walter (44:52)
Yeah. Well well like like
like on a simple example like the oil change thing. I like
Ed (44:57)
Hmm?
Jeff Walter (44:58)
imagine if you could just 3D print the the drain plug or a mini drain plug, a mini oil
Ed (45:04)
For example, Not me, anyone, yeah.
Jeff Walter (45:06)
filter, and a mini oil cap, right? Like
Ed (45:09)
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (45:11)
and you know, it sounds really silly, but then all of a sudden the person has these three things sitting in front of they’re playing with them, and you’re like, you use the
Use the you know, if you have it and you’re using a touch screen, use the plug to activate you know, like like just like I I I I’m just I again, I’m I’m not being an instructional designer now, but the but the possibilities of that are just really fascinating.
Ed (45:34)
James,
fascinating. Yeah. So I like that. Yeah. Story. This is great. Yeah. That is, yeah. It makes sense. You know, it’s a, that is why it is, it is important to when you’re having a thinking process to write it down, using your hands instead of just using the keyboard, for example.
Jeff Walter (45:57)
Yes.
Ed (45:57)
I think this is related with your, yeah.
Jeff Walter (46:00)
Yeah, well a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, the yeah,
th and that’s th that’s like I’ve seen a lot of I haven’t read any of but I’ve seen yeah, yes, on on learning. You’re you you know, you’re you’re much better in a class taking notes with a pen and paper because of the fine motor
Ed (46:15)
It’s white, huh?
Jeff Walter (46:16)
skills involved in writing the words with the pen and paper than you are taking notes with a computer. Because you’re
You know, it’s kinda like in and w well yeah, the r the research showed when you take notes with your computer, your brain is just doing something mechanical and it doesn’t save anything. But when you use the pen, it’s
Ed (46:33)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (46:35)
it’s re it’s retaining it. Yeah. You know, I didn’t think about that when I read that when I heard about that. It’s the same thing. You’re doing something
Ed (46:41)
It
should be the same principle behind it. And
Jeff Walter (46:44)
Yeah.
Ed (46:45)
generally it makes sense because it is supposed that we have this intelligence that we have right now because our hands back in the time with our cromagnons, I don’t know, maybe nether therns.
Jeff Walter (46:56)
Yeah.
Ed (46:57)
So we got these brains because this is theory that because we were using our hands, so the brain started
Jeff Walter (47:04)
Huh.
Ed (47:05)
to develop. So I think that’s related to.
Jeff Walter (47:07)
Yeah, well that that’s really yeah, that well that’s see I’m a big evolutionary type of guy. Like yes, like evo evolutionary biology and like
Ed (47:13)
Yeah, I like that, Yeah.
Jeff Walter (47:17)
and we f I I think sometimes we forget about that living in the modern world, that yeah, we are embodying a a physical being that evolved a certain way, and you’re a hundred percent
Ed (47:29)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (47:30)
right. Like the learning was ta very tactile. I never even th I didn’t even think of that.
Ed (47:34)
tactile, that’s what it
Jeff Walter (47:36)
Like it that it’s all related to that.
Ed (47:36)
Yeah, so it is part of
our nature and that is why in this course it’s okay to have math, to have the writing, I have my keys there, but what about the manual, what about the dexterity? We are losing
Jeff Walter (47:51)
Right.
Ed (47:51)
that, and that’s important.
Jeff Walter (47:53)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well and it and it ties into what you’re talking about with the thr like I just think w yes, yes, I agree a hundred percent. And w we’ve that’s another that’s another one of my little things that I love. Well, I
Ed (48:04)
That’s what…
Jeff Walter (48:08)
I just think we could do so much more educating our youth, and we’ve gotten away from a lot of those things, but I’m not gonna we’re we’re we’re getting a little short on time. But I just wanna
Ed (48:15)
Yes, that’s what I’d say.
Jeff Walter (48:18)
say you just blew my mind with the three D printer thing.
Like it was already very cool that you could take an SOP and create a digital simulation that’s beyond the talking avatar, right? But but then to start to consider and just you know, so folks know yeah, y y y again, you’re talking about the future. But that is such a cool concept.
Ed (48:37)
That’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (48:40)
That’s I I I think that’s I think that’s very powerful. Very powerful. So very, very cool.
And we won’t go down that other rabbit hole. because you’ve been very generous with your time. And I don’t want to take another half hour talking about that.
Ed (48:55)
I we can get another chance though, yes.
Jeff Walter (48:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. So so we we talk actually one the things we’re gonna talk about was c what’s coming down the pipe in the future. You’ve already talked about the about br incorporating three D printing into this, which I think is so so cool. That just you just blew my mind on that. That was so cool. Thank you. I I I d yeah, I’m just speechless ’cause that my mind is just overflowing with cool things to do there.
Ed (49:21)
I’m
Jeff Walter (49:22)
hey, you’ve been very generous with your time and Mondo. I pr really appreciate that. yeah, as we wrap up here, is there any any
You know, if if folks wanted to get a hold of you or Grasply how what’s the easiest way to get a hold of you or get a hold of Grasply
Ed (49:36)
You mean the easiest way to contact me to get there?
Jeff Walter (49:38)
Contact you guys, yes. Yeah, to contact
Ed (49:41)
Yeah, grasply.ai, the website is the main point of contact, or my email is at mundo, E-D-M-U-N-D-O, at grasply.ai.
Feel free to contact me and to talk about this. Maybe to get the opportunity to pilot this 3D stuff. That would be great. Have a real training purpose for that. So happy to talk about that.
Jeff Walter (50:07)
Yeah, yeah, that
would be very, very cool. Very cool. And and is there anything else you wanna share before we go or we covered a lot of ground. Just want to make sure that there
Ed (50:17)
We need
to have a second talk maybe and maybe we can deep dive into different topics. But yeah, I think it’s been a great conversation and thank you very much for, yeah, and you have great stories too about this. Yeah, the hand you said, that’s great. Wow, yeah.
Jeff Walter (50:39)
Well it’s
well, it’s one of the reasons I love doing this podcast, ’cause I get guests like you and you say things that just blow my mind. And then I’m like, my god, and then and then all of a sudden it starts cross referencing with these other things and it’s
Ed (50:52)
Just yeah, just started it.
Jeff Walter (50:54)
it’s so cool. It’s it’s such a I think as a learning and development professional, it’s such a very cool point in time. And
Ed (51:01)
We need this, yeah, we need this. Yeah, of
course, because we are sparking ideas. do, as part of the ideas, you mean like this, okay, we don’t need something specific just to have something on hand. That’s, yeah, it’s great.
Jeff Walter (51:13)
It’s very it’s very cool. So
all right. My f my friend, thank you so much for your time. I I really appreciate it.
Ed (51:19)
Episode Transcript
Jeff Walter (00:05)
Hi, I’m Jeff Walter and welcome back to the Training Impact Podcast, where we explore scaling performance through training infrastructure. My guest today is Armando Barrientos. He’s the founder and CEO of Grasply, where he’s helping organizations use AI to transform knowledge into engaging, scalable learning experiences. We’ll discuss how artificial intelligence is reshaping knowledge sharing, onboarding, and workplace enablement, and what learning leaders need to know to stay ahead. Armando,
Welcome to the program.
Ed (00:33)
Thank you very much, F, for having me.
Jeff Walter (00:36)
And so as my listeners know, I’m always interested in the in the path that somebody that people take. you you founded Grassplay, so help me out help us understand how did how did that come about? What were you doing beforehand and why Grassplay? And and for the audience, what is Grasply more specifically and and and how why did you start it?
Ed (00:56)
Perfect, yes. This is being around 20 years journey. I started in my home country, Chile. Actually, I started in schools. That was my first experience with learning, K to 12, I mean, schools. So I started with helping teachers, helping students to understand, of course, topics.
Pretty exciting times there. I founded a company. That’s around 20 years ago. And something that I started to get obsessed with is how people learn. In general, not just kids, but adults, you know. How to learn is across ages. entire theory behind this.
And then I kind of get tired about that specific segment. I started thinking because my company grew. How can I teach my employees how they can start applying, right? Real stuff, not just concepts, know, concept is kind of easy to transfer that knowledge, but how they can apply the knowledge. So
That is how GraspBli started. That’s an idea as much companies as much endeavors, an idea how to transfer effectively knowledge into doing. That is an important part for an organization.
Jeff Walter (02:26)
And and so you started twenty years ago, so congratulations on the longevity. you know, be
Ed (02:31)
Yeah
Jeff Walter (02:32)
being around for two decades is is quite an accomplishment, so congratulations. And and you and you when you started you were in Chile and
Ed (02:39)
That’s right in Chile, that’s right.
Jeff Walter (02:41)
and and and and and where does Grassplay operate now? Are you still based in Chile or or how how’s how’s that how’s how have you expanded over the last twenty years?
Ed (02:52)
Yeah, that was the beginning. So after 10 years in the business, I wanted to be part of a bigger pond, let’s say. So I was thinking about the US. the US could be a great place to start my next endeavor. Because, know, small countries, they got, yeah, great stuff. But also, the market is not.
eager to get innovation generally. So I started this journey. I’m in the United States right now, 40 years ago now. This company, roughly, it is based in the United States.
Jeff Walter (03:30)
So so Grasp so you you and and do you still have operations in Chile or do you still have that the company operating down there or you now mainly the
Ed (03:38)
Yeah, is. Yeah,
that is the old companies is still there, but I’m not operating. I’m not in the day to day of that company.
Jeff Walter (03:45)
Right.
Ed (03:45)
And of course, a lot of networks are in there. So some customers of the grasp, we are Gillian companies, but main operation of the main goal is US.
Jeff Walter (03:58)
So w if you don’t mind me asking, what do you s I’m always interested from an international standpoint, different countries operate in different ways. You kind of touched on a little from a learning and development standpoint, w what what have you seen as the difference between the two countries in terms of the industry, the willingness to learn?
Just just you know, like if compare and contrast, you know, because we I I we I talked to a lot of US based companies and they’re trying to expand internationally. And you
know, you run
Ed (04:27)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (04:28)
into a lot of you know culture I’d say you know, cultural norms or differences of doing business or differences of just behaving in the marketplace. So you know, I was interested in in trying to learn more about
the compare you know, if you if you kinda look at the two,
Ed (04:43)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (04:45)
like what works in the US but doesn’t work in Chile and and vice versa, right? What works well
Ed (04:51)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (04:51)
there. And just just trying to get a sense of the the the you know, for folks that might be looking at expanding their horizons. Or or folks coming
Ed (04:59)
Yeah, good question.
Jeff Walter (05:01)
coming from South America to the US, right?
Ed (05:05)
That’s right, yeah, cultural differences are a lot. I would say that the core from our learning and development perspective, it is the same. They have the same issues, the same problems. But I’d say that tools don’t necessarily are the same. In the United States, it’s much more developed. All of the tools available, because innovation is much more…
important, is much more feasible even. You can innovate because you have a lot of people basically, the rules are pretty clear, you can innovate, can start doing your companies. In countries like Chile and South America in general you have small countries, Chile for example 20 million.
So you don’t have that space to innovate. If you want to go to Mexico, it’s a completely different story from even an administrative point of view. You have to start a new company. Laws are different. So recommendations from going from the United States to Latin America a lot, but I would say every country is a different story. You have to have…
Different country managers or people in charge of different countries culturally, maybe we speak the same language Spanish or Portuguese in Brazilian case but Different cultures even so it is I’d say it is hard Maybe the opposite going from Latin America to the United States of course on unique challenges like
For example, in Latin America, are accustomed to, it is familiar to do a lot, offer different services for the same segment. And here it’s important to focus to narrow down specific offering to specific segment, for example. And that’s important from going from South America to here, the United States.
Jeff Walter (07:05)
So
I i it sounds to me like that’s also a function of the size of the market, right? Like if you have a smaller market, there’s fewer players, so the players are actually covering a larger set of services, let’s say. Whereas in a larger market you have to specialize more t so that you can differentiate yourself from the other the the competition as it were. Yeah, there’s there’s a lot Yeah.
Ed (07:27)
For the players, that’s right.
Jeff Walter (07:31)
So that’s really that’s interesting. So so let’s talk about Grassplay. So so you’ve been in business for a long time and and but Grassplay really and what I found fascinating, one of the reasons I want to have you on the f on the on the on the show, as we talked about early on, is is is an AI focused company, AI in learning. So so
Ed (07:50)
right to us.
Jeff Walter (07:52)
what have you built there and and w why do clients
Well well just tell us about the the platform and what what it does and then what are trul clients trying to achieve when they engage you guys.
Ed (08:04)
Perfect, yeah. All this starting from our vision, our vision is to close the gap between the knowing and the doing. That’s the gap that we involved with. So our customers, issues that they have, it is pretty well known. For example, they…
develop, they deploy content to their people, but that content doesn’t necessarily become application and in doing, we have SOPs for example. An SOP, if you explain an SOP, it won’t necessarily become applied knowledge. So that is a big gap. There are multiple…
research about this is what is taught, there is around 70 to 80 % will be lost in the following three months. So this is
Jeff Walter (09:00)
Yeah.
Ed (09:00)
the forgetting curve. So that’s a big struggle. And if we put that in numbers in, I don’t know, 400 billion industry, that’s a lot of money that is being…
for own away because of this. So this
Jeff Walter (09:17)
Yeah. that’s it.
Ed (09:18)
is the main problem.
Jeff Walter (09:20)
So so that so that’s interesting. So you let me let me understand if I if I so the research I I think what you just said, I just want to make sure I understand what you said is the research shows that even if I send if I create a s training for an SOP or some type of process or something within I think you said three months, you lose
like you
Ed (09:41)
Yeah, three months. There are several
studies, but that’s the kind of rush.
Jeff Walter (09:45)
Yeah, with within three months the learner forgets seventy to eighty percent of of of that. I guess that tie would tie into you know on the learning doing gap. I guess my as I’m thinking about that, I’m like, wow, that’s a lot. But then I guess that makes sense if you’re not immediately applying that knowledge, right? Or or if or if a lot of that knowledge is not
Because I think you fall into the eighty twenty thing too, even if you’re applying that knowledge right away, like you know, how to operate a certain piece of machinery. You know, you only need twenty percent of the knowledge to operate it eighty percent of the time, and the other eighty percent of the knowledge is for all the exceptions. You know, and then you don’t have
Ed (10:24)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (10:25)
that exception for six months and you forgot what you’re supposed to do. Like like
Ed (10:29)
Hehe
Jeff Walter (10:30)
so it’s basically then the training is important but it has a retention issue. Is is that is that w is that the right way to think about it?
Ed (10:38)
Yes,
yeah of course and it is because our brains got that restraint and that is where cognitive science enters the game. That is why it is important to go to the root of this. Why, what is this happening? This global effect that I’m mentioning, it got a brain restriction, it comes from a brain restriction. is…
in order for us to learn, we need constant repetition, for example. And that’s a fact. This is learning science. There are several principles around there that add up to making people to learn faster application, you name it. It is important if you don’t apply,
You cannot learn to ride a bicycle for example, watching how the other guy is doing it. You have to do it by yourself.
Jeff Walter (11:31)
Mm-hmm.
So so on the neuro i i is that does that have to do with the pathways? The the the the brain building pathways to you know for knowledge and and and applic and application and doing? I’m just thinking the the knowing doing. You know, and so so
Ed (11:46)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (11:48)
the the the repetition is it the the repetition strengthens those pathways? Is that the idea?
from the science standpoint.
Ed (11:56)
And yeah,
from a neuroscientist point of view, internally our brains are always producing new connections, maybe not necessarily new neurons, but connections always, even when we are getting older, new connections are being produced. And yes, when we repeat, kind of the brain says, hmm.
Maybe this is important for us, for survival maybe. So,
Jeff Walter (12:21)
Uh-huh.
Ed (12:22)
okay, maybe let’s strengthen this path, these new connections. So yes, it is related.
Jeff Walter (12:31)
So so okay, so now how does Grassplay address that issue, right? So so I you
Ed (12:35)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (12:36)
you stated the problem. The problem is I go to training, I learn something, I might even do it a couple of times, right? You know, if it’s a hands-on instructor led training, I might actually do it, which is better than not doing it. And and but but so how does Grassplay address that issue?
Ed (12:55)
I will add one more cognitive principle to connect with your question. We have the repetition part and also we have another principle that is our brains don’t differentiate between what is real from what is not real. So for example if we have
The F1 example, Formula 1 for drivers, they use simulations as crazy. And their brains, what is the principle? Their brains doesn’t differentiate between, this is a real track, this is the real cars between the simulation from the real stuff. So, Graspley is taking advantage of those two cognitive science principles.
Because, okay, we need repetition, but the simulation must be as much as approachable to the reality of not as much as approachable. There is a concept of the cognitive functionality. If the cognitive functionality is similar to what they apply to reality, that will work. There is an example, I think we talked this weeks ago. It is about…
People that are driving a forklift and
Jeff Walter (14:09)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (14:09)
they work in beverage distribution and they have to in a good way or in efficient way they have to put the cases, the boxes into a pallet like the Tetris game.
Jeff Walter (14:23)
Right.
Ed (14:24)
So one way to train these people
with repetition is to use a real forklift. That’s okay. But that’s expensive. So there are ways to do or to produce the same new path based in our brains using a little palette like a Lego, using little cases like Legos, and you do it by hand.
you are using the same cognitive process as if you could have done this in a real forklift. And that’s a simulation. Even if it’s a simulation using it in a screen, in a computer, that’s a simulation because your brain is using the same operations internally.
Jeff Walter (15:10)
So okay, so let’s just d if we just focus on that second principle, what what what I think I heard you said is the first principle being repetition creates pathways
Ed (15:21)
competition. That’s it.
Jeff Walter (15:22)
and then strengthens pathways. And the when you were saying that, the the analogy that went on in my head or the metaphor in my head is at first it’s a cow path, then it’s a road,
Ed (15:33)
You
Jeff Walter (15:34)
then it’s a highway, right? Like with the repetition.
Ed (15:38)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (15:38)
but then the second
thing is you said the brain doesn’t know the difference between simulation and reality. Right? It just it so
Ed (15:46)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (15:47)
and and when you said that the the thing that jumped to my mind is like, that’s why you get you jump back into movie theater when when there’s a scare when something pops out on the screen, right? The the the the the
Ed (15:57)
That’s right, yeah. That’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (16:02)
the the villain
jumps out of nowhere. You know you’re in a movie theater, you know you’re in a seat, and you know and you you know your
Ed (16:07)
You
Jeff Walter (16:09)
rational mind knows all that, but you still have the reaction of because you you’re you’re
Ed (16:15)
That’s what it says.
Jeff Walter (16:16)
startled just slight you know, so it it’s that same like that is is that an example of what you’re talking about? The brain the brain
Ed (16:24)
That’s a great
example. Yeah, an example of our daily lives, of course. even we have the rational part of this, still our brains are our brains from the reptilian ages, I don’t know. So yeah, that’s the fact that grasply or those effects are what grasply takes. basically grasply taking these two, there are other cognitive science principles in there, but they are the main two.
Graspy generate simulations with as much as cognitive fidelity as possible to make it much real possible. Not necessarily it must be like a 3D, no, it’s the operation, the cognitive fidelity operationally, like the palette that I mentioned.
Grassroots generated simulations using organizational knowledge, your SOPs, using your transcripts, knowledge, your documents that you have. And we have internally an AI assistant that takes all of this information and in less than 10 minutes, for example, you can generate a simulation. You can generate a simulation for practicing a real conversation with a customer or a potential
customer using your SOPs for that, using your methodology, your processes, your product knowledge, your offering knowledge. So that is what we do at BrassBand.
Jeff Walter (17:47)
So so you start with the source material, the like the standard operating procedures or the playbook or or or some some type of somehow that tribal knowledge gets digitized somehow, right? Like in an SOP. Then if and then it you you put it through grasply and you create a simulation of that. So what would some examples of that be in practical terms?
That you’re that like w like what your c
Ed (18:12)
I’ve got to this.
Jeff Walter (18:14)
well, your clients, what do they generally use that for? Is a better way of asking the question.
Ed (18:18)
Mainly for sales training, onboarding,
Jeff Walter (18:21)
Okay.
Ed (18:22)
new reps. They don’t know much about the product, about handling objections. So they start practicing handling objections after reading. Of course, in order to apply, have to know before. That is
Jeff Walter (18:39)
Right.
Ed (18:39)
another principle. You have to know, these are the objection handling stuff.
They use for that for a little leadership development. How to manage difficult conversations with your people. For example, how to fire somebody or how to… There is somebody that is sharing specific information like a password and they and he or she…
sharing this and you have to have those difficult conversations, you don’t have to do this. But for all the spectrum you can apply this where you have conversations with people. That’s one use case with different sub-use cases.
Jeff Walter (19:23)
So so mo mo you know most of your clients are using it for s s for sales training? Like that that would be the top thing they’re using it for? And yeah.
Ed (19:31)
would say yes, but
because this is kind of the must, the law of hanging fruit that is existing right now, but we’re getting much customers simulating operational devices, for example, in the medical industry, how to
Jeff Walter (19:49)
Okay.
Ed (19:49)
operate a specific device. So before going to the real scenario with a real patient,
practice this in a simulation you have your console there and you got for example an urgency how you will approach this so you start kind of fine-tuning the different parts that you need to do checking here, checking there and that’s getting that’s getting attention to do that because what is the other way is you have the manual
for that device. This
Jeff Walter (20:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ed (20:22)
is manual and then in real life there is some specialist must travel maybe across the United States to teach to do that but they are not applying the operation of that device. So that is something that is getting traction.
Jeff Walter (20:41)
So so going back to what you said earlier, then, because you said first you have to know, and
Ed (20:46)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (20:46)
and then the problem right now is that we train people on the knowing, and within a few months they lose most of that knowledge. And we have a hard time with the doing because traditionally that you know take takes a lot of human t interaction, right? And but now we can simulate
Ed (21:02)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (21:04)
that, use AI.
What Grasper does is use AI to create those simulations. So
Ed (21:08)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (21:10)
so we can do digital simulations in high fidelity. And and that allows us to practice and get feedback. I always think of the difference between knowing and doing.
People always ask, well, what does that really mean? In my in my brain, it’s like getting your driver’s license. First, you have to pass the written
Ed (21:26)
Hehe.
Jeff Walter (21:27)
test so that you know what that red octagon means. You know what that
Ed (21:32)
You
Jeff Walter (21:32)
little yellow line in the middle of the street means. You you know all these things. And then you have to t do the driver’s test, where you actually have to demonstrate that you can operate the vehicle safely on the road. Right. And you and in order to prepare for that, you and your best friend or you and your parents or you and
You and somebody that knows what they’re already doing goes into a parking lot and practices a bunch of times. And that so, you know, if I if I if I understand where Grasply would work well is you do the first thing the way you might traditionally do it, however that is, e learning, videos, in person, whatever it is, but then Grasplay has the AI generated simulation.
to apply that knowledge and do it over and over and over again so that you can solidify those neural pathways and turn them from cow paths to at least solid roads,
Ed (22:21)
Mm-hmm
Jeff Walter (22:23)
you know, secondary roads, if not highways. Is that is that a good way of thinking of it?
Ed (22:28)
This
is an excellent way actually yeah driver license you need the concepts you need
Jeff Walter (22:36)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (22:37)
to understand what is going on like yeah you we have this test at the beginning yeah so and that’s why Raspberry is
It’s a compliment with the current infrastructure because still we need to transfer concepts. Without
Jeff Walter (22:54)
Right.
Ed (22:55)
concepts we cannot move forward into application. There is no way. So having those videos, documents that we have, PowerPoint maybe or whatever it is right now, it is required. Then…
it comes grasply with the application through simulation. yeah, that’s a perfect example. It’s like grasply, we are not doing that, but it’s generating like a driving simulator.
Jeff Walter (23:22)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (23:23)
We are not in that business of course, the driving simulator, but that is part of the example.
Jeff Walter (23:28)
Yeah. So so now the the the platform on the on the sales, I just want to understand a little bet better because when you brought up the medical device, I thought that was really interesting. So like on the sales side, you know, I’m assuming that simulator is more of a you know an a a a talking avatar, right? Like like it like the avatar
Ed (23:50)
That’s why it’s this.
Jeff Walter (23:53)
is a prospect
It’s been configured to behave in a certain way. Maybe it’s a tire kicker, maybe it’s an maybe it’s a ornery prospect with a lot of objections. but it’s it’s it’s of a certain prospect type. And you’re inter and as a sales person, you’re interacting with it. And and then and and then based on your interaction, there’s you know, some type of grading or or
you know, against some type of protocol, right? But when you talk about the medical device, that seems like a completely different type of simulation. So is that ha like ha h help us help me understand how that works. Like I get the I get the I get the avatar, you know
And it could be sales, it could be dealing with a difficult employee or dealing with a difficult boss, like interpersonal skills, right? Where you’re dealing with another I like that that I can see clearly how an SOP can turn into a you know, which which is actually actually I’m I’m sorry, I got stomachs or something. It’s actually flipping amazing that that is something that I can get my head around.
Because five, ten years ago that would have just been pow right? And now it’s like you’re go and I’m going, Okay, yep, I I can see that I’ve seen avatars, you know, and and you can interact with them. And so that makes but what does a simulation look like when you talk about the medical device companies? ‘Cause that’s that’s that sounds different. That there you’re not talking to another y you know, you an avatar. It or are you, or how does that work?
What does that look like?
Ed (25:36)
Yeah, it’s much better to see than explain, but I do my best here. But let’s put an example of a coffee machine. A coffee machine that is a simple device. So in this case, have in this simulation, is you have a visualization, not necessarily of the coffee machine, but the operation, the buttons, the…
different features or mechanisms of the coffee machine. Of course, you won’t be using your hands. That’s where we want to go, but not yet. Digitally
Jeff Walter (26:05)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (26:07)
clicking the mouse or maybe some keys on your keyboard. This still could be a guided simulation where you have a code that will be guiding you.
So…
Jeff Walter (26:17)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Ed (26:18)
You can have that first approach with this guiding simulation where in order to do that you have to open the valve maybe so you have to do this first, second step is this, you have to do, I don’t know, open this box and then check this indicator and you have a guided version of this. Instead of reading a manual you have a coach that is
Jeff Walter (26:43)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Ed (26:43)
avatar that is guiding
you through the operation of the device of the coffee machine in this case and then you have the non-guided version where you have to do this by yourself and you’re kind of assessed and you mentioned something important yeah and all of this simulation there is an assessment because there is another principle that in me that feedback is
It’s much better than a delayed feedback for example. So you have, I pressed the wrong button here. I should have pressed this first. So you got a real time feedback of that in these simulations.
Jeff Walter (27:16)
Okay.
So so on if we look at the medical device or the coffee machine thing, as you were explaining it, the image that came to my mind was like you know, having been in a a digital escape room, right? Like, you know, I’ve
Ed (27:31)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (27:32)
I’ve I’ve played with that in the past. well you know, as opposed to a real escape room, right?
And and you’re sitting there going, let me, you know, click on the cabinet to see what’s in the cabinet, click on this to see what’s under the rug, the avatar and then whether that’s guided by an avatar or you’re on your own, I can get but is it kinda like like when you talked about the coffee, is that the right imagery to kind of
Like here’s a coffee pot. The first thing I need to do is open this, then I need to pour water in, then I I need to, you know, press this over here to grind the beans, and then I do this, and then I do that, and then I push this button and it brew like like to follow a process or something. Is is is it kind of like say the digital escape room? Like you’re you’re clicking on things to make it do stuff. Is that is that the right way of thinking of it?
Ed (28:21)
Yes, that’s the right thing.
Jeff Walter (28:24)
Okay.
Ed (28:24)
Maybe you don’t have the picture of that specific machine, but you have the operation. That is the important part. But yeah, you describe this perfectly. This is the way
Jeff Walter (28:32)
Okay.
Ed (28:32)
to interact with the digital version, the, let’s say, digital twin of the real coffee machine, for example.
Jeff Walter (28:40)
Well
and it and it’s kinda like what you said earlier. It’s like, okay, the question is how much what’d you use the word fidelity, I think you used? It how how how
Ed (28:48)
Yeah, the cognitive reality, that’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (28:49)
high is the fidelity of the simulation? But even if it’s like the Legos to the yeah, the higher fidelity the better, but even if it’s low fidelity
you’re able to strengthen those neural pathways by going through the process. Right. Like when you talked about the Legos and the and the high low, you know, learning how to stack things. Well, you know, using your hands and little Lego things that look you know can build those pathways, you don’t have to be, you know, and it’s that would be say a low fidelity model, right? or maybe a high fidelity or mod me it’s yeah.
Ed (29:24)
Yeah, my idea. They decided to arrange the
room.
Jeff Walter (29:27)
But
but so that’s really so that’s really cool. You know, because I I’ve talked to other fo I’ve talked to other
Ed (29:32)
Yeah, it is.
Jeff Walter (29:34)
folks that do the avat that can do the av that where they have the avatar and it’s amazing that like first off I just want to say that’s amazing just to start with. It really is. and and I’m so excited about that and I and I think that’s probably you know what I’m seeing in my clients in that
as they start to slowly adapt AI is like they can kind of get their hands around the interpersonal skills on the things like you talked about sales training inter you know in recruiters interviewing people
managers dealing with different types of employees that or employees that have different situations that need to handle be handled in a certain way. you know all these y interpersonal interactions. and and and and but when we get to that next step of taking something in the physical world, I I
I’ve seen them, but they’re very
They’re very difficult to build. You know, and I’m just saying going, huh. If you’re able to like that’s I think that’s really freaking that’s really amaz like very, very cool if you can take a an SOP and and which may or may not have images in it.
Right. Like, you know, this is how you change the oil. And it shows you first, you know, you
Ed (30:56)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (30:57)
you you take the oil plug out and here’s a picture of the oil plug, right? Like generic oil plug at the bottom of an engine. you know, and and here’s the oil filter, generic you know. And then it
Like I’m envisioning that it’s taking all that, including some of the the the visuals, and then creating a digital environment for you to go, okay, I’m now presented with the oil plug, the oil filter,
Ed (31:22)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (31:23)
where I where I add the oil. the process is you know, do this, take the plug out, drain it, change the filter, put the plug back in.
fill fill it up with oil, right? and so that’s a process. And I’m picturing this simulation where it’s got all these, say, images, and I’m going, well first do this and then do this and then do this and then like I I think that and and then you can have an avatar take you through that. That that’s really that’s really, really cool. I’ve had a couple we’ve had a couple of clients that are medical device manufacturers. And that that was always one of the that’s one of the hardest things for them.
Because these are high stakes, this is high stakes training. Right? You know, you know, we had one
Ed (32:04)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (32:06)
client that did robotic sur equipment for brain surgery, right? Another one is LASIK surgery, you can mess up pretty bad. and you know, and so and so
Ed (32:14)
What was that?
Jeff Walter (32:17)
you when you got to that part, it was always manual hands on, you know.
But the but the ability to actually get there or they built simulations and they they were very expensive to build. so the ability to get a that first tier of simulation out of your SOPs is just incredible. That is so cool. That’s really cool.
Ed (32:37)
It is, yeah, actually it is cool to get this simulation from manual to build this digital twin version of that device
Jeff Walter (32:44)
Yeah.
Ed (32:45)
and for training purposes that’s that is the simulation for and you mentioned something important what about the physical aspect of this and actually that’s where we want to go to go further
is to go physical and sometimes is how to build maybe in a 3D printer how to produce the sensations of getting something physical so how to build this coffee machine with a 3D printer and start feeling pushing buttons but that’s coming that’s the future but because yeah we’re constrained right now in the digital world and
that fidelity, it is good, it is better than nothing. It is better than just reading a manual, what I have to do right now. But next stage, it is going into the physical world.
Jeff Walter (33:38)
That’s real that’s huh.
That’s it that’s really cool. That’s well
Ed (33:43)
Hahahaha
Jeff Walter (33:45)
well no, you know, it’s on I w I was at a conference and Napa is working with create Napa accelerator and they’re they’re trying to create s using meta goggles and little paddle thingies. take the yo
t train you know the they’re they they’ve got sixty trainings for particular things
Ed (34:06)
Okay.
Jeff Walter (34:07)
like doing a brake job, changing oil, things that we just, you know, and they’re and they’re taking and they’re taking from the physical to the the virtual using ver you know VR and and that because getting the physical out to the learner and managing all that is you know difficult and expensive.
Right. It’s usually the learner has
Ed (34:28)
That’s it.
Jeff Walter (34:29)
to come to the physical, right? And and that means travel and boarding and and and time away from working and blah, blah, blah, blah. But I you you you just said something I I I haven’t heard anybody talk about yet, which is really cool, is if you could and and I think it goes back to your your Legos thing. Yeah, it’s like you don’t
Ed (34:49)
Yeah, that’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (34:51)
have to have a whole engine, let’s say. You can do a little piece.
And can
Ed (34:56)
That’s it.
Jeff Walter (34:58)
huh. And then just pr and then use a three D printer to just create a inexpensive physical simulation of the thing you’re doing, whatever that is.
Ed (35:09)
That’s right. That’s the idea and generate
Jeff Walter (35:11)
Huh.
Ed (35:12)
it from AI to generate the 3D components. That is where we’re heading to. Of course, we need to establish all of these digital parts first and that is where we want to go.
Jeff Walter (35:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, but that’s I I c I think that I ha that is really that’s really interesting. Like I’m I’m you’ve got my brain spinning on that. You know. Well well first off, I like I said, like I I I’m just finding the whole evolution of using AI and the tools and and and other tools like VR and and now Virt and and and
And dig 3D printers, like it it’s just it’s just mind-blowing. Like so the the the idea that you could take those SOPs and then create a digital simulated environment that could that that at least takes you from learning with no doing to some level of doing at some level of fidelity, right? And being able to do that using and using AI to do that.
So that it can be done in a you can create it quickly and inexpensively and deliver it inexpensively, right? Relative to the alternatives. is really like that’s very cool in its own right. But now you just got my brain going down this whole 3D printer thing. I’m like, huh. Like even if you like you even if you did it all that and then you printed out the part that you were trying to do or what it looks like.
Ed (36:44)
Yes, and the intermediate step could be the virtual one. is the intermediate. Generate all of these virtual worlds, 3D. That is the intermediate part. Even from there, we can start generating the physical stuff, like feeling. For example, there are…
This is a game and you have a pinball station with different pinballs.
Jeff Walter (37:10)
Mm-hmm.
Ed (37:10)
You have actually, you can have like a controller, a console. This is physical and you use your virtual glasses, your VR.
Jeff Walter (37:20)
Yeah, the V the V R, yep.
Ed (37:23)
But you’re feeling like a real pinball.
Jeff Walter (37:28)
Yeah.
Ed (37:30)
But you have different games because it is mixing reality with the virtual and that’s an intermediate side and that’s cool too.
Jeff Walter (37:40)
Well, yeah, well,
especially when you start talking about medical devices, right? Like I’m j I’m I’m just cueing on that for a second. You’ve got the you know, cause these you know, like the the clients I’m thinking of, I mean, these machines are big and expensive, right? So to get your hands
Ed (37:57)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (37:58)
on the controls, y you know, I have to go to the health center. And
Ed (38:04)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (38:05)
and by the way, you know
If it’s not being used for actual surgery, right? I yeah, just to get my fingers on it. But the idea that you could kind of
have that digital simulation from an SOP and then print off like the scalpel or the the the device that the surgeon would hold which you may or may you know which you may or may not be able to incorporate into the simulation but just even to tactily feel the thing
Ed (38:32)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (38:33)
it’s like huh that’s I it’s it’s
Ed (38:36)
Yeah, in that
way we are improving, we are enhancing this fidelity. That’s idea.
Jeff Walter (38:41)
Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. Like I could I could almost see like taking it going, okay. just just talking about say a s a a a laser scalpel or a laser like printing it off and using it to point to you know, if you had a touch screen, using using it to touch things, right? I mean you could use your
Ed (39:01)
Yes.
Jeff Walter (39:02)
mouse and touch, touch, touch, but print off the and then you get the tactile sense of I’m holding
And then when you actually are with the physical actual machine, you’ve already got some tactile memory, which goes back to everything you said, right? Like like that open that that that helps s you know, pave that cow path, right? You know, which which the other thing I love about the tactile, if I can I’m sorry, I’m just you got my brain going all over the place. So I’m just so I
Ed (39:31)
No please, it’s just a idea yeah?
Jeff Walter (39:35)
So I interviewed a a woman a while ago and she was geez, I’m gonna for what was it? It was Legos. serious play, that’s what it was. So twenty ten, twenty years ago,
Ed (39:46)
serious placement.
Jeff Walter (39:48)
when you know, Legos used to just be blocks and then Lego came out with kits. And so the Lego corporation was in the middle of like, how do we sell more Legos and they
They came up with all the different things. One of the things they researched, I and this woman was a certified instructor in this, was
Using Legos and doing tactile stuff actually helps you learn regardless doing anything tactile helps you learn what you’re learning regardless of what you’re doing. So that this this this woman, it was fascinating. She had read all of this stuff. This is before she became a certified instructor, and she was giving like a compliance course to a bunch of sales guys at some conference for two days. And you know, rooms dark.
Got the PowerPoint up on the screen. Everybody’s on their
Ed (40:34)
Mm-hmm
Jeff Walter (40:35)
phones. Everybody’s on their computers. None of these salespeople care about what she’s saying about compliance. And then at night that night, she went out and bought a whole bunch of those little play-doh. She’d been reading about this that tactile increases your absorption.
Ed (40:51)
The talk time, okay.
Jeff Walter (40:52)
And she went out and bought a bunch of little cans of play-doh. And she put them on everybody’s desk. You know, everybody’s seat.
And when they came in, she’s like, that’s just something I picked up. You know, feel free to play while we’re talking about this. Well, she goes on to day two of compliance training for salespeople at a conference. So, you know, it’s also day two. So they were out the night before, right? She said her engagement went through the roof. They they they started playing with the
Ed (41:18)
Wow,
Jeff Walter (41:21)
she goes, do whatever you want with it. I don’t care. But everybody had one color, right?
Ed (41:25)
Hmm
Jeff Walter (41:26)
And so
people started making stuff. They turned to the they turned to their neighbor and like, hey, can you give me some of your your blue? yeah, here’s some of my green. And and they’re making just whatever the heck they wanted to make. It had nothing to do with the training. But instead of being on their phones and and and and or just zoning out, they’re they’re they were doing
Ed (41:43)
Interesting, yes
Jeff Walter (41:46)
something tactile and they absorbed not only they were much more
Ed (41:51)
Wow.
Jeff Walter (41:51)
engaged, they were listening to what she was saying.
They were asking more questions. She said the level of engagement went through the roof. And then after that, she she focused on this Lego serious play. And in Lego Series Play, you actually use the Lego as part of the training
Ed (42:08)
Mmm.
Jeff Walter (42:09)
to represent things you’re doing. It kind of builds on that doing anything tactile. Basically, the theory there, the cognitive theory was when you do anything tactile, it opens up your the the
the the neuron, you know,
Ed (42:23)
Wow.
Jeff Walter (42:23)
it’s opening up your brain to absorbing information because you’re learning, because you’re you’re touching. And so even though they were like making silly figures and faces and asking
Ed (42:29)
or talking gas.
Jeff Walter (42:34)
their neighbor for the blue and the green and the brown, you know, their brains opened up and they’re absorbing more and they were more engaged. And then the Lego series play takes that to the next level and uses the Lego in in yo, you know,
Do me a build to represent your, you know, next year’s strategic plan. Which sounds really s like, what do you mean? Use Lego to express my but
Ed (42:58)
you
Jeff Walter (42:59)
anyway, it’s really interesting when you talked about the 3D. Yeah. Well, so when you started talking
Ed (43:01)
Interesting,
Jeff Walter (43:04)
about the 3D printing, it just like that just came flying into my head, that conversation I had with her. I’ll I’ll have to make sure we have a link to that
Ed (43:11)
Wow, that’s…
Jeff Walter (43:13)
the episode in the show notes. I forget the exact episode. But
It’s the the whole premise there, and it goes back to cognitive science, was if you’re doing anything physical with your hands, anything tactile, you abs you just absorb much more. And then if you could take that tactile and apply it to
Ed (43:31)
Wow, that’s great.
Jeff Walter (43:35)
you know, and then that’s so that’s like you know, this level,
Ed (43:37)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (43:38)
and then if you could you know, for those you know, my hand’s low.
yeah, so you go from zero to to five, and then if that tactile thing can be applied to the training, you go to ten, right? Like boom. And so what I love about your idea of the 3D printing, and I you know, I I don’t know exactly, you know, the the is rather than using something generic like Play Doh, like Allego,
Ed (44:02)
Hmm.
Jeff Walter (44:03)
you could actually print something related to the training.
Ed (44:07)
the training.
Jeff Walter (44:07)
The the and and
and even if it’s digital training and you’re not in a classroom, it it’s it it gives you something tactile which would open up the the the pathways to absorb more knowledge
Ed (44:20)
interesting, Yes.
Jeff Walter (44:24)
and like I just I like when you said that my brain just went on fire like it just went, my gosh. Imagine that you could easily print something that was
Ed (44:26)
That’s great. Yes.
Jeff Walter (44:32)
actually like like
It’s still the example, but like the going back to what we were talking about. Yeah.
Ed (44:36)
No, pretty powerful, yes. Even if
the cognitive ability is not adding so much, but because of that cognitive effect, it is not related. It is improving the grasp of new knowledge, new concept. That’s incredible, yeah.
Jeff Walter (44:52)
Yeah. Well well like like
like on a simple example like the oil change thing. I like
Ed (44:57)
Hmm?
Jeff Walter (44:58)
imagine if you could just 3D print the the drain plug or a mini drain plug, a mini oil
Ed (45:04)
For example, Not me, anyone, yeah.
Jeff Walter (45:06)
filter, and a mini oil cap, right? Like
Ed (45:09)
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (45:11)
and you know, it sounds really silly, but then all of a sudden the person has these three things sitting in front of they’re playing with them, and you’re like, you use the
Use the you know, if you have it and you’re using a touch screen, use the plug to activate you know, like like just like I I I I’m just I again, I’m I’m not being an instructional designer now, but the but the possibilities of that are just really fascinating.
Ed (45:34)
James,
fascinating. Yeah. So I like that. Yeah. Story. This is great. Yeah. That is, yeah. It makes sense. You know, it’s a, that is why it is, it is important to when you’re having a thinking process to write it down, using your hands instead of just using the keyboard, for example.
Jeff Walter (45:57)
Yes.
Ed (45:57)
I think this is related with your, yeah.
Jeff Walter (46:00)
Yeah, well a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, the yeah,
th and that’s th that’s like I’ve seen a lot of I haven’t read any of but I’ve seen yeah, yes, on on learning. You’re you you know, you’re you’re much better in a class taking notes with a pen and paper because of the fine motor
Ed (46:15)
It’s white, huh?
Jeff Walter (46:16)
skills involved in writing the words with the pen and paper than you are taking notes with a computer. Because you’re
You know, it’s kinda like in and w well yeah, the r the research showed when you take notes with your computer, your brain is just doing something mechanical and it doesn’t save anything. But when you use the pen, it’s
Ed (46:33)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (46:35)
it’s re it’s retaining it. Yeah. You know, I didn’t think about that when I read that when I heard about that. It’s the same thing. You’re doing something
Ed (46:41)
It
should be the same principle behind it. And
Jeff Walter (46:44)
Yeah.
Ed (46:45)
generally it makes sense because it is supposed that we have this intelligence that we have right now because our hands back in the time with our cromagnons, I don’t know, maybe nether therns.
Jeff Walter (46:56)
Yeah.
Ed (46:57)
So we got these brains because this is theory that because we were using our hands, so the brain started
Jeff Walter (47:04)
Huh.
Ed (47:05)
to develop. So I think that’s related to.
Jeff Walter (47:07)
Yeah, well that that’s really yeah, that well that’s see I’m a big evolutionary type of guy. Like yes, like evo evolutionary biology and like
Ed (47:13)
Yeah, I like that, Yeah.
Jeff Walter (47:17)
and we f I I think sometimes we forget about that living in the modern world, that yeah, we are embodying a a physical being that evolved a certain way, and you’re a hundred percent
Ed (47:29)
That’s right.
Jeff Walter (47:30)
right. Like the learning was ta very tactile. I never even th I didn’t even think of that.
Ed (47:34)
tactile, that’s what it
Jeff Walter (47:36)
Like it that it’s all related to that.
Ed (47:36)
Yeah, so it is part of
our nature and that is why in this course it’s okay to have math, to have the writing, I have my keys there, but what about the manual, what about the dexterity? We are losing
Jeff Walter (47:51)
Right.
Ed (47:51)
that, and that’s important.
Jeff Walter (47:53)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well and it and it ties into what you’re talking about with the thr like I just think w yes, yes, I agree a hundred percent. And w we’ve that’s another that’s another one of my little things that I love. Well, I
Ed (48:04)
That’s what…
Jeff Walter (48:08)
I just think we could do so much more educating our youth, and we’ve gotten away from a lot of those things, but I’m not gonna we’re we’re we’re getting a little short on time. But I just wanna
Ed (48:15)
Yes, that’s what I’d say.
Jeff Walter (48:18)
say you just blew my mind with the three D printer thing.
Like it was already very cool that you could take an SOP and create a digital simulation that’s beyond the talking avatar, right? But but then to start to consider and just you know, so folks know yeah, y y y again, you’re talking about the future. But that is such a cool concept.
Ed (48:37)
That’s right, yeah.
Jeff Walter (48:40)
That’s I I I think that’s I think that’s very powerful. Very powerful. So very, very cool.
And we won’t go down that other rabbit hole. because you’ve been very generous with your time. And I don’t want to take another half hour talking about that.
Ed (48:55)
I we can get another chance though, yes.
Jeff Walter (48:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. So so we we talk actually one the things we’re gonna talk about was c what’s coming down the pipe in the future. You’ve already talked about the about br incorporating three D printing into this, which I think is so so cool. That just you just blew my mind on that. That was so cool. Thank you. I I I d yeah, I’m just speechless ’cause that my mind is just overflowing with cool things to do there.
Ed (49:21)
I’m
Jeff Walter (49:22)
hey, you’ve been very generous with your time and Mondo. I pr really appreciate that. yeah, as we wrap up here, is there any any
You know, if if folks wanted to get a hold of you or Grasply how what’s the easiest way to get a hold of you or get a hold of Grasply
Ed (49:36)
You mean the easiest way to contact me to get there?
Jeff Walter (49:38)
Contact you guys, yes. Yeah, to contact
Ed (49:41)
Yeah, grasply.ai, the website is the main point of contact, or my email is at mundo, E-D-M-U-N-D-O, at grasply.ai.
Feel free to contact me and to talk about this. Maybe to get the opportunity to pilot this 3D stuff. That would be great. Have a real training purpose for that. So happy to talk about that.
Jeff Walter (50:07)
Yeah, yeah, that
would be very, very cool. Very cool. And and is there anything else you wanna share before we go or we covered a lot of ground. Just want to make sure that there
Ed (50:17)
We need
to have a second talk maybe and maybe we can deep dive into different topics. But yeah, I think it’s been a great conversation and thank you very much for, yeah, and you have great stories too about this. Yeah, the hand you said, that’s great. Wow, yeah.
Jeff Walter (50:39)
Well it’s
well, it’s one of the reasons I love doing this podcast, ’cause I get guests like you and you say things that just blow my mind. And then I’m like, my god, and then and then all of a sudden it starts cross referencing with these other things and it’s
Ed (50:52)
Just yeah, just started it.
Jeff Walter (50:54)
it’s so cool. It’s it’s such a I think as a learning and development professional, it’s such a very cool point in time. And
Ed (51:01)
We need this, yeah, we need this. Yeah, of
course, because we are sparking ideas. do, as part of the ideas, you mean like this, okay, we don’t need something specific just to have something on hand. That’s, yeah, it’s great.
Jeff Walter (51:13)
It’s very it’s very cool. So
all right. My f my friend, thank you so much for your time. I I really appreciate it.
Ed (51:19)
Thank you very much.
Jeff Walter (51:21)
And you’re you’re w you’re welcome. And and to everybody out there, thank you for joining us and hope you enjoyed the conversation. Take care.
Thank you very much.
Jeff Walter (51:21)
And you’re you’re w you’re welcome. And and to everybody out there, thank you for joining us and hope you enjoyed the conversation. Take care.