Hosted by Jeff Walter, Founder and CEO of LatitudeLearning
Project-based learning has long been regarded as one of the most effective ways to help students develop meaningful, lasting knowledge. Rather than memorizing information for an exam and quickly forgetting it, students investigate authentic problems, collaborate with peers, conduct research, and apply what they learn to create real solutions. The approach mirrors the way people solve problems throughout their professional and personal lives, making learning more engaging while building critical thinking, communication, and leadership skills.
Despite decades of research supporting project-based learning, adoption remains surprisingly limited. Many educators recognize its value but struggle with the practical realities of implementing it consistently. Designing authentic projects takes time. Guiding teams requires continuous coaching. Managing collaboration, research, accountability, and assessment introduces layers of complexity that traditional classroom instruction simply does not require.
In this episode of the Training Impact Podcast, Jeff Walter sits down with Miriam Bogler, founder of Project Pals, to explore why authentic project-based learning remains difficult to implement, how artificial intelligence is changing that equation, and why the future of education may depend less on teaching students answers and more on teaching them how to investigate meaningful questions. Throughout the conversation, Bogler presents a compelling vision for combining educational best practices with emerging AI technologies to make authentic project-based learning both practical and scalable.
One of the most important distinctions Miriam Bogler makes is between projects that simply summarize information and projects that require genuine investigation.
Many classrooms already include assignments labeled as “projects.” Students create presentations, posters, slide decks, or videos after completing a unit of study. While these assignments may encourage creativity, they often represent little more than a different format for reporting information that has already been taught.
Authentic project-based learning works differently.
Instead of beginning with answers, students begin with a problem. They investigate an issue that does not have an obvious solution, identify what they need to learn, divide responsibilities among team members, gather evidence, and gradually construct their own understanding through research and collaboration. That investigative process becomes the learning experience itself rather than something that happens after learning has supposedly been completed.
Bogler explains that this distinction is critical because investigation mirrors how people actually solve problems throughout life. Whether someone is purchasing a home, launching a business, improving a manufacturing process, or designing a new product, they rarely receive a step-by-step answer sheet. Instead, they identify the problem, determine what information they need, consult others, evaluate alternatives, and gradually work toward a solution.
Education, she argues, should prepare students for exactly those experiences.
One of the most interesting themes throughout the discussion is the role collaboration plays in deep learning.
Traditional classrooms frequently evaluate students individually. While collaboration occasionally occurs, assessment often focuses on what each learner can independently recall during a quiz or examination.
Project-based learning changes that dynamic entirely.
Once students divide a complex investigation into smaller components, each learner becomes responsible for mastering a particular portion of the project. Success depends not only on understanding their own assignment but also on communicating that knowledge effectively to teammates. Every participant must teach others what they have discovered so the team can integrate each individual contribution into a complete solution.
During the conversation, Walter observes that this closely aligns with the “learn, do, teach” philosophy often used in workplace learning. One of the strongest indicators that someone truly understands a concept is their ability to explain it clearly to someone else. Project-based learning naturally creates these teaching opportunities because every student becomes both learner and instructor throughout the project.
Instead of knowledge flowing only from teacher to student, it flows throughout the team.
That continuous exchange strengthens understanding, improves communication skills, and encourages students to view learning as a collaborative process rather than an individual competition.
If project-based learning produces stronger engagement, deeper understanding, and more practical skills, why do relatively few schools fully embrace it?
According to Bogler, the answer is not philosophical. It is operational.
Authentic projects require students to master far more than academic content. They must learn project management, time management, communication, collaboration, conflict resolution, research methods, planning, accountability, and teamwork. Teachers, meanwhile, must facilitate each of those skills while simultaneously helping students achieve the desired academic outcomes.
Managing all of those moving pieces becomes overwhelming.
Students need guidance creating driving questions. They need help identifying research topics. Teams require coaching on assigning responsibilities, establishing deadlines, resolving disagreements, and tracking progress. Teachers often find themselves serving simultaneously as instructor, project manager, mediator, coach, and evaluator.
Bogler notes that many educators understandably simplify projects because the administrative burden becomes too great. The result is classroom assignments that retain the name “project” while losing many of the characteristics that make authentic project-based learning so powerful.
Much of today’s conversation surrounding artificial intelligence in education focuses on preventing students from using AI to generate essays or complete homework.
Bogler proposes an entirely different perspective.
Rather than asking AI to produce answers, she believes educators should teach students to use AI as a Socratic coach.
Instead of generating completed work, AI asks carefully constructed questions that guide students through their own thinking process. Students remain responsible for developing ideas, evaluating evidence, making decisions, and constructing conclusions. AI simply facilitates the thinking process by asking increasingly focused questions that help learners clarify their objectives and organize their investigation.
This distinction fundamentally changes the relationship between students and artificial intelligence.
Rather than replacing critical thinking, AI becomes a catalyst for critical thinking.
The technology encourages reflection instead of removing it.
Bogler explains that successful projects consist of multiple cognitive stages, each requiring different forms of support.
Students first need to develop a meaningful driving question.
Next, they must identify the major topics they need to investigate before they can answer that question. They then establish team norms, create collaboration agreements, define project goals, conduct research, synthesize findings, and ultimately produce a final solution.
Each of these stages presents unique challenges.
Her approach uses a series of AI-guided prompts that coach students through every phase individually. Rather than overwhelming learners with an entire project from the outset, the process becomes a sequence of manageable conversations in which AI continually asks questions instead of providing solutions.
One particularly valuable component involves helping teams create a collaborative charter. Students establish expectations for communication, define responsibilities, discuss how disagreements will be handled, and agree upon processes for resolving conflicts before problems arise.
Those interpersonal skills often receive little direct instruction despite being among the most important competencies graduates will eventually use throughout their careers.
Although Project Pals serves educational environments, many of the concepts discussed throughout the episode translate directly into corporate learning and workforce development.
Organizations frequently introduce new employees to policies, procedures, and best practices by asking learners to memorize existing documentation. While this approach communicates information, it may not always develop deeper understanding or prepare employees to solve unfamiliar problems.
Walter explores how project-based learning could reshape workplace onboarding by encouraging learners to design solutions before comparing their ideas with established organizational practices. Instead of immediately presenting the official process, organizations might challenge new employees to investigate operational requirements, collaborate with teammates, and propose their own approaches before evaluating them against existing standards.
This investigative approach could produce stronger engagement while helping learners understand not only what procedures exist but why they exist.
The conversation highlights an important shift occurring across learning and development.
As artificial intelligence makes information increasingly accessible, competitive advantage will depend less on remembering information and more on knowing how to investigate problems, collaborate effectively, evaluate evidence, and continuously learn.
Those capabilities sit at the very heart of authentic project-based learning.
The discussion with Miriam Bogler ultimately challenges one of education’s oldest assumptions: that teaching begins by delivering information.
Instead, authentic learning may begin by asking better questions.
Project-based learning encourages curiosity before instruction, investigation before memorization, and collaboration before individual assessment. Artificial intelligence, when used thoughtfully, has the potential to reduce many of the logistical barriers that have historically prevented educators from implementing these experiences at scale.
Rather than replacing teachers, AI becomes another instructional tool that allows educators to spend less time managing administrative details and more time mentoring students as they navigate increasingly meaningful learning experiences.
For learning and development professionals, training leaders, instructional designers, and educators alike, the episode offers an optimistic vision of what learning could become when technology is used to strengthen human thinking rather than substitute for it.
To learn more about Project Pals and its approach to authentic project-based learning, visit https://projectpals.com/.
Follow the Training Impact Podcast on social medial at https://t-sml.mtrbio.com/public/smartlink/trainingimpactpodcast
Jeff Walter (00:00)
Start and it’s uploading stuff and it’s got the little upload at the top and that’s it. oops, there we go.
Miriam Bogler (00:00)
Okay.
Jeff Walter (00:14)
And anything else you want to cover before we start?
Miriam Bogler (00:18)
I know, I think I’m good.
Jeff Walter (00:20)
All right. So we’ll start in and then when we’re done, we’ll stop recording and then we’ll talk for a few minutes about what happens about next steps and and then we’ll go from there. Okay. All right, so we’ll do this in three, two, one. Hi, I’m Jeff Walter and welcome back to the Training Impact Podcast, where we explore scaling performance through training infrastructure. My guest today is Miriam Bogler, founder of the Project PALS.
Miriam Bogler (00:30)
Sure, All right.
Jeff Walter (00:49)
An innovative platform helping schools and educators bring project-based learning to life through real real world collaboration and hands-on experiences. In our conversation, we’ll explore how these same principles that drive student engagement and deeper learning can be applied to partner franchise and dealer training to help build learner practical skills, collaborate more effectively, and turn knowledge into measurable performance outcomes. Miriam, welcome to the program.
Miriam Bogler (01:15)
and thank you for having me.
Jeff Walter (01:17)
Yeah, so so Project Pals, Project Based Learning. Well why don’t you wanna let let’s start first with helping everyone understand what is project based learning, how did you get into it, and and and your journey of how you got where you’re at.
Miriam Bogler (01:32)
Okay, so I used to be a computer teacher. At the time, students would go to computer labs and in the computer lab they would be engaged in creating projects. Very fast I noticed that what students believed that was a project was basically a summary or an essay that they wrote, they added a few pictures and that was a project.
So at the time, the principles of project-based learning were starting to be defined. basically, project-based learning is an investigation. It’s exactly like you would have a project at the workplace. You start with a driving question, the question that drives the entire project. It’s usually an open-ended question.
And in most cases, there’s a team of students who try to tackle that question, basically try to find the solution for it. And the entire process involves students doing research, students having to manage the entire project, having to know how to manage projects, how to collaborate. That’s a whole skill that a lot of students don’t know how to do.
and of course to have regular meetings so that they will see that they are advancing towards solving the problem. basically until finally they will come up with a presentation showing the class and showing the teacher that they actually investigated the problem and they came up with a solution. The entire process
involves a lot of iteration, just like you’re doing a project at the workplace. You never know the solution immediately. You come up with a solution and then you test it and you see whether it really solves the problem or not. then you even brainstorm with your team and then maybe present it to the class or present it to the teacher.
They have comments and then you go back, many times you have to go back to the drawing board and suggest something new, something that will be more, you know, something that will address the problem better. And until finally you come up with something that everybody agrees that this is really a good solution for whatever you were trying to solve. It’s not a process that you finish in a few lessons.
It is a lengthy process. takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of teacher dedication and but makes mainly time, mainly time that in many cases teachers don’t have. They don’t have because their curriculum is already dictated by, you know, by administrators what exactly they need to achieve. And in many cases they just don’t have the time to have students.
focus on the project, on all the parts of the project until they solve it. So that’s, yeah. So yeah, peace.
Jeff Walter (05:03)
So yeah, go ahead.
No, so so
It it w you know, it it I’m just you s you kinda said the the that your interest in it started because of as a as a teacher yourself, it seemed like the work that your students were doing was
was not getting at the r was not w they weren’t get we’re we weren’t getting at the root or or
Miriam Bogler (05:39)
So basically,
let’s ask a question. What is the goal of education? The goal of education is to train students to step into the working world with confidence and with skill. So that when they go into their first workplace, they know exactly how to tackle any problem that their boss gives them. And if we are just giving them…
a topic to investigate, not to investigate, to learn about. Sorry, if the teacher stands in front of the class and she talks about the topic and the entire expectation is that they will answer a few questions or maybe do an essay about it and that topic is just isolated. Say, I don’t know, they are learning about a concept in science or something like that.
and it’s completely disconnected from anything else, then you know that this is not going to address the way work is happening. And the reason is that work is never, the topics in work or whatever students will face in work, is never an isolated subject. It usually is very interdisciplinary. It has a lot of factors involved in it and many times it’s not
Jeff Walter (06:48)
Mm-hmm.
Miriam Bogler (07:04)
just one subject, it’s not just math or science or English. It’s a combination of all these things together. And so we need to train them exactly the same way so that when they step out to the workplace, they know how to tackle these type of problems. And what’s happening and what happened in traditional learning is that we had a science teacher and we had an English teacher and we had a math teacher. And those things never combined in any way, shape or form.
Jeff Walter (07:34)
Mm-hmm.
Miriam Bogler (07:35)
And so students many times ask, you know, why do I have to learn this? I don’t see the point because they don’t see what is the final goal. It has a point. It has a point when you put it together in a project. Then you start seeing, I see why I needed to learn calculus. Calculus is not an isolated thing. You know, it’s usually a part of many processes in the workplace. And so
you know, when you don’t see the point, because calculus is usually very complicated to learn, and you say to yourself, why am I being bothered with this? You have to see the goal, you have to see the purpose. Otherwise, you will always feel like that. I felt many times like that.
Jeff Walter (08:10)
Mm-hmm.
So
yeah, well I well it’s interesting. so so it it reminds me a to a certain degree of the case study work we used to do in grad school where you you know you would be given a case study and you have to go analyze everything. And and and and you looked at it from a a multiple perspectives and usually doing it in a group and then you were learning from each other.
Miriam Bogler (08:37)
Exactly.
That’s right.
Exactly.
Jeff Walter (08:50)
Which is really interesting. And and do you find do you find that that’s a more effective method of teaching or or or or is it ju is it a different modality of teaching or in
Miriam Bogler (09:02)
So first of all about
your grad school, it should not start in grad school. It should start in elementary. You know, not not in second grade or first grade, but it should definitely start on third grade. That’s that’s the first part of it in terms of of how it whether this is a better method. Yes, there’s actually research that proves that there is already research for many. think for the last 40 years that proves that.
Jeff Walter (09:09)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Miriam Bogler (09:31)
Project-based learning is the most effective way to learn. Everybody knows that. And there is a very sad situation in our education system. And I just checked and I was surprised that only 1 % of schools in the United States are actually implementing project-based learning.
the authentic project-based learning. What I mean by authentic is that it’s an investigation because many teachers don’t know exactly what project-based learning is. They think that project-based learning is when you do a summary of a subject you just learned, that is a project. And you added a few images and you submit it to the teacher, that’s a project. Or others think that project-based learning is just building something. You have to build something, that’s a project.
and without the connection to the investigation of it, just building per se.
Jeff Walter (10:30)
Yeah, well
and I think that’s a that’s a key thing is the investig which is different. I and and and when and I say that, I I I think that is that the key is the investigation is the key that you’re investigating something. And
Miriam Bogler (10:45)
Of course, of course. Yes, yes.
Because let’s face it, that’s what you do in life. You do projects in life. Even somebody who buys a house, okay, and they need to go and calculate the mortgage, how much they are going to pay every month. You know, that’s a project. There’s a lot of factors involved in it. It’s not just one thing.
So in life, we have a lot of projects, a lot of things that we need to investigate in order to come to a solution or in order for us to understand how we need to act.
Jeff Walter (11:30)
So so playing
devil’s like there’s a lot of things that are tr that you’re triggering in my mind that I that when we talked earlier did it it it it didn’t dawn on me. Like one thing is the the investigation being the key. The the other is I I’m a big believer in the the learn do teach pedagogy. Right? So I say like to really learn s to really know something, you gotta teach it. And all of a sudden it dawned on me when you were talking about this. It’s like, my gosh.
Miriam Bogler (11:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (11:59)
The learners, the students, they’re not just learning, they’re also teaching each other. And in teaching each other, they’re honing their knowledge of the subject. Right? Because somebody’s like, you know, if you’re investigating something, re regardless of the subject, it’s it’s multidimensional. And somebody’s gonna go, I understand this dimension, you know, like ca take your calculus, right? I I I understand how to do integral calculus and how it can be applied in this situation.
Miriam Bogler (12:05)
That’s right.
That’s right.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (12:29)
But
I don’t understand this other dimension of calculus. Right. And then another student pops in and goes, well it’s kinda like this And then and the other person goes, I get it and you get and and that’s the mentoring and the teaching. Yeah.
Miriam Bogler (12:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it’s not just so so
so Calculus in itself, as I said, is a subject that is being taught. If it’s disconnected from something from what we are using it for, then students will not understand why the heck they need to learn calculus. So it’s more like the investigation that I’m talking about is when you have a project that uses calculus in it.
Jeff Walter (12:51)
Right.
okay.
Miriam Bogler (13:12)
Okay.
And there is a reason for using it because otherwise they will not be able to solve that problem. And then the problem is being divided. it not, there isn’t just one student who is doing the entire project, although it’s possible, but it’s usually a lot of work. Usually it’s a team project. And then the project itself, once they,
Jeff Walter (13:34)
Right.
Miriam Bogler (13:39)
identify the parts of the project because that’s one of the phases in project-based learning is to identify what are the parts that I absolutely need to learn in order to understand this topic. Then each student has to specialize in whatever is assigned to them and they have to meet regularly and update each other. So, and that update has to be in a way, and this is the part that you’re talking about teaching each other.
This is the part when they have to make sure that the other team members understand exactly what they investigated because otherwise they will not be able to take all these parts of the project and make it drive the solution. make, you know, it has to be, they have to be coordinating and understanding each other’s parts so that they will be able to drive the project towards a solution.
Jeff Walter (14:36)
Now now how do you know I I mean the other thing I that triggers in my mind is ha i as a as a teacher, okay, how do you know they’re heading in the right direction and getting the right answer? Do you do you know what I’m saying? I I c I I hate saying the word the right answer, ’cause in life there is no right answer. But but but but
Miriam Bogler (14:47)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So there isn’t one answer usually.
Jeff Walter (15:03)
But that
but I think you know, w one of those things is how do you know that the the that the team is heading in the right direction?
Miriam Bogler (15:11)
So there
are a few things that usually happen in, you know, there usually there is a teacher that the teacher’s role is not the traditional teacher role that they are standing in front of the class and talking. This teacher role is to basically look into what the team is doing and see if she needs to navigate them in a specific direction. But not in a way that she’s going to tell them, no, you’re wrong. You have to do this and this, but more.
Why don’t you try this direction or that direction or basically point them towards the right direction? That’s one option. That’s option number one. Option number two, this is usually a team project and each student has their part in investigating. And many times when somebody is just getting off,
of what they need to, of the general direction that they need to pursue, then many times the other team members notice and they can direct, they can say, well, you know, I have a problem with this because it doesn’t look like we are pushing it towards a solution. It looks to me more like, you know, this and this. And so, so there are a few ways that, you know, that students can actually be directed towards
what they need to come up with in the end. And I’m not saying solution because this is not a multiple choice test that there is one answer or something like that. This is something that usually they come up with a report and about whatever they found out found. And that report has to be convincing. It has to have a lot of evidence. And this is again, you know, they another way of making sure that they are in the right direction is
before they even do the final presentation, they can have a presentation for the class and say, what do you think? We are testing this and we would like to hear your opinions. And many times the class raises their hands and says, you know what, this doesn’t make sense to me. Or maybe you should think on, you know, you should think, you should pursue another direction or something like that. So there are multiple ways that you can, or you can even invite an expert.
Let’s say you’re doing a project about whatever and I don’t know, designing a health system or designing a marketing plan for something, you know? And then you invite an expert and the expert can give them pointers, can say, well, maybe you should look at this and maybe this doesn’t sound convincing enough and so on and so forth. And that’s what I said that many times in project-based learning, you just go back to the drawing board.
and you design something that is more fitting, know, and more convincing.
Jeff Walter (18:13)
Well so I get the direction side. The the other thing that pops into my mind is the is the free rider effect. Right? Like you you you know you’re you’re trying to ensure that everybody meets some stand standard of understanding, right? Like you we’re we’re teaching, right? And you want to make sure all students hit some level of understanding. how
Miriam Bogler (18:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (18:42)
Yeah, I you know, if we take the example of, you know, I don’t know, maybe you’re putting a pool in. Maybe that’s the project and you know, and and the the water has to have a certain chemistry to it, right? And so there’s there’s there’s some physics in there in terms of how deep and wide the pool, there’s chemistry in there in terms of getting the right chlorine and pH and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, there’s a it’s multidisciplinary. How how do we how do you prevent
Miriam Bogler (18:51)
Mm-hmm.
one.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (19:12)
And I and the you want everybody to have say a certain understanding of chemistry as a result of this project. How do you make sure that there wasn’t just one or two people on the team that really understood the chemistry aspect, took it and ran with it, and the rest of the team remained ignorant of the chemistry aspect? Like how does how do you make sure that there’s a a a certain level of understanding across the team?
Miriam Bogler (19:17)
Mm-hmm.
So.
As I said, the project usually is broken down to parts and each part and students, the team members take different parts to investigate. And maybe one of them will investigate the chemistry of the water and then they will have to come and present that. And since everything is dependent here, the project has to have all these things in it, including the chemistry.
Jeff Walter (19:49)
Right.
Miriam Bogler (20:07)
The other team members have to understand everything that the other team members are doing, because otherwise they will not be able to continue the project. There will not be a conclusion for this, because they depend on each other. This is one project, it’s not multiple projects, it’s one project that they all drive, and they have to drive towards a conclusion, and that conclusion has to be convincing, and has to be a good solution.
And especially if they build something that can fall apart. So they better build something that is going to be good and stable and the water is not going to poison people. So yeah, so it’s exactly like, this is a big example, like building a car. If your team member and a
Jeff Walter (20:40)
Right.
Yeah, or make make you sick. Well, yeah, I
Miriam Bogler (21:05)
It’s not one person who builds a car. There’s a whole team of people who are building cars. And if one person is not performing their role, then that car is not going to work.
Jeff Walter (21:18)
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean, like there’s a couple of things about it that really I I find very appealing. And you know, like the the the whole learning from each other, you know, which a lot of times too, you know, there’s like the zone approximal development, right? Also, it’s like it’s like I don’t understand the chemistry but you do. Maybe I understand the physics, but you don’t.
Miriam Bogler (21:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (21:48)
But what I’m what I asked the teacher about the ca about the chemistry like or or something, they’re they’re so far removed from my level of understanding that they they struggle to translate it into something I can understand. But but you understand it because you’re just a chapter ahead of me. And I and and you’re able to relate it. But so like there’s the that zone approximate development. But then the other thing
Miriam Bogler (22:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Bye.
Jeff Walter (22:18)
Two that comes to my mind, and it was really interesting, about absorbing knowledge and actually if you’re doing something, if you’re doing something, it’s easier to absorb knowledge. You’re you know, whether you like I remember interviewing someone and they talked about Lego and learning.
Miriam Bogler (22:33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (22:44)
And it it was just fascinating. And anyway, the the story there was really fascinating. She was giving a a compliance training to a bunch of salespeople. And the first day went, you know, what you would expect: dim room, PowerPoint, salespeople on their phones, on their computer, didn’t care about the training, no engagement. She went out that night and bought play-doh and put a thing of play-doh.
Miriam Bogler (23:06)
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (23:13)
little you know the little play-dhows on everybody’s chair for the for the next day and told them, hey, that’s just the play, do whatever you want. And everybody had one color. And so she’s doing this next session, same presentation, same dimly ri room, but everybody starts playing with the play-doh and saying, Hey, you know, can I have some of your white? I’ll give you some of my blue. And they’re exchanging while they anyway, long story short, she was like,
Miriam Bogler (23:16)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (23:41)
tremendous increase in in engagement, even though they were playing with Plato the whole time. ‘Cause they’re actively engaged in something. And and I think of the the project based learning is you’re actively engaged in something and so you’re gonna just absorb and engage much more than
Miriam Bogler (23:44)
Yeah.
Of course.
So yeah, so yeah, I mean you are taking me to exactly to the people who are defining project based learning and something you build. And that’s not that’s not just building that’s that’s a whole investigative process of building it. You know there’s there’s whole thing behind the building itself. So what I’m trying to say here that behind every project besides the.
the reading of the material and the meeting with the team, there’s a whole management process exactly like in the workplace. students actually need to, once they come up with the parts of the project, they need to come and decide on tasks that they are assigning. So they need to do a whole table with this is what you are doing, this is what I’m doing, and you’re going to be finishing this by this and this date because I will be depending on you.
Jeff Walter (24:32)
Mm-hmm.
Miriam Bogler (24:53)
So you have to finish this part by that date. So there’s a whole management process that has to be part of the whole project-based learning experience. And in addition to that, of course, there’s a whole thing about team collaboration. There’s a whole, you know, who’s going to do what. And once we have a problem, when somebody is not lifting, you know, is not doing whatever they need to do.
Jeff Walter (25:11)
Mm-hmm.
Miriam Bogler (25:24)
then how do we resolve this issue? There’s an issue we have to deal with this. We have to learn how to collaborate effectively. So that’s what I’m saying that project-based learning, the reason there’s such a small percentage of schools that are actually implementing authentic project-based learning so small is because not just the time requirements, but also all those other skills that you need to train your students.
in order for them to actually do an effective project. And I can understand it. can understand, especially if teachers have no time, I can understand why they are staying away from it in most cases, or maybe they are doing something like you said, know, like just write for me a summary of what you learned and put a few images and that’s it. But I think that all this
changed when AI came out. And okay, so what AI enables is actually AI can take over the process. That process that I was mentioning, project management, the collaboration, all these things, the AI can actually dictate. Now, how can it do that? Not by
Jeff Walter (26:24)
Okay. And how s how so?
Miriam Bogler (26:51)
Asking it. can you give me a list of a table or something like that? No It it can do it when you use it as a Socratic coach So you tell it you tell AI you create a prompt and you tell AI you’re gonna now Serve as a Socratic coach. You’re not gonna give any answers to students all you have to do is help them come up with the driving question and then
Jeff Walter (27:01)
Okay.
Miriam Bogler (27:19)
The AI is going to ask them, okay, so what is the topic that you want to do the project about? And then what is it that you’re trying to achieve from this investigation and so on and so forth? Finally, by asking so many questions, it drives students towards creating their own driving question. If you’re going to ask today a class that doesn’t use AI, but wants to use project-based learning,
If you’re going to ask students, please come up with a driving question, they will look at you and they will have no idea what you’re talking about and how to do it. But if you give them that prompt, you know, and the prompt actually knows, I mean, the AI knows that it’s not supposed to give them the driving question itself, but it’s supposed to give them a lot of questions that finally will lead them to a question. And then if you break the entire process into these prompts, and I created
Jeff Walter (27:53)
Uh-huh.
Miriam Bogler (28:16)
like six prompts that cover the entire process. So first day they do the driving question, there’s a prompt for the driving question. After that, there’s a prompt for them to learn how to break down the topic into what are the main parts of your project. Because that’s also a very challenging cognitive task to tell a student, okay, this is your driving question.
Now, can you determine what are the topics you need to learn in order to answer this driving question? That is a very challenging cognitive task. But if you create, if you use my prompt and the prompt is, you know, the AI serves as a Socratic coach and asks a lot of questions, then at the end of the process is that the student comes up with a list of topics that they need to learn.
And that helps, know, and then they see what exactly they need to look. Once they have those topics and everything, there is the whole thing about collaboration and how do we behave to each other. And for that purpose, created a, I created a prompt where it, AI helps students create a team charter.
And the team charter, it asks questions about what happens if we disagree about things and how do we behave. And so all those things that, you know, happen in a team and you work together. And then after that, each, it teaches them, there’s another prompt that basically helps them come up with a project goal and with.
how to do research because how to do research is also a problem. A lot of students don’t know how to do that. And after that, there is another prompt where once each student has their own individual assignment, how to actually do your own investigation, how to come up with a reliable investigation that your team can rely on. And so all these six prompts can actually take
a student and it takes away that burden from the teacher because all she needs to do is give them those prompts and you know and they and basically AI manages the entire process. The teacher doesn’t have to bother about that, doesn’t have to worry that she doesn’t know how to do project management which is understandable. Teachers are not project managers.
Jeff Walter (30:54)
Right.
Miriam Bogler (31:01)
It definitely trains the students how to tackle projects, not just in the classroom, but this is going to be something that they will carry with them when they go out to the workplace.
Jeff Walter (31:15)
Yeah, I you know, it’s it’s interesting because I I I find it very I find it very interesting because it’s it I like there there’s so many elements about it that I believe can just improve learning and outcomes. And then I find it very interesting that when you get into the workplace and we need to do training, we go back to
Miriam Bogler (31:34)
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (31:43)
individual learner doing something on their own, you know, more more classical type of education. You know, either e either in a physical classroom, virtual classroom, or individual self study where you’re you know, where you’re on your own and and you don’t get into those collaborative environments where you’re learning from your fellow learners, from your fellow students.
Miriam Bogler (31:51)
Bye.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (32:11)
So it’s it’s really and that’s one of the reasons we wanted to talk is I think there’s opportunities out there and and learn more about the project based learning. because I I was just I was at a conference about a year and a half ago where Marriott was some folks from Marriott were talking about how they had taken a three day they used to have this three day leadership class before COVID.
Miriam Bogler (32:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (32:39)
And then
COVID hit, so they broke it up into you know eight weeks of meeting every other week. And and what they found was that was much more effective. Because rather than say, okay, let’s all get together. Here’s principle, you know, here’s principle one leadership, principle one, two, three, four, five. Okay. Now, you know, first day’s over, everybody go out to dinner and have fun tonight. Okay, next day, how you guys doing? Here’s principle four, five, six.
Miriam Bogler (32:50)
Yeah.
And then we’ll start.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (33:07)
Instead they and then okay, you’re done, go back out and apply these. they would go, okay, here’s our first session, just principle one. All right, go back and apply it. Then it came back two weeks later and it was like, hey, how’d that go? And you got a lot of it’s almost project based ish, is a you got a lot of interaction of well, I tried it and this happened, and I tried it and that happened and and and and help me figure out how to better apply this principle.
Miriam Bogler (33:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (33:37)
And it turned into a a a multi step, you know, the the the project the the work structure was broke down, but it was but it was very interesting. It was much more interactive. And it’s and I see elements of project based learning in there. Obviously it’s not project based learning. But but it’s like I I I s sit there and go, it it I think we can do so much better if we’re able to
Miriam Bogler (33:46)
I
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Walter (34:07)
Create these different types of project based things. Like I’m in my head, I’m sitting there going, okay, so how would we apply this to a particular thing we’re trying to teach people in you know, teach our you know, teach people workforce? And you might actually start with, rather than saying, here’s our policies and procedures, you might you might want to back up and say, Hey, here’s the type of th business we’re in. What what would you design as policies and procedures?
Miriam Bogler (34:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. that would be much more exciting. I can guarantee it.
Jeff Walter (34:38)
And as and there’s your project, right? And it’s a multidisciplinary thing, right? Because
And then you can almost take what they come up with and go, how does that compare to what we actually put in place? Right? And then I bet you you would I I I I I almost like guarantee you in my head, like as I’m listening to what you’re saying about project based learning, if you took that approach to teaching somebody like I let’s just take something really simple. Like opening and closing a store. I mean, it’s not that simple, but it’s
Miriam Bogler (34:51)
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (35:15)
You could wrap your arm arms around it. There there’s a bunch of things going on in there, right? There’s getting it prepped for the customer when you open up. There’s getting, you know, there’s the finance and the and the and the merchandising and there’s a whole lot of things going on. But the the tet what you see today is folks going, here’s our process for opening up a store. You do A, you do B, you do C, right? Now regurgitate it back to me. I do A, I do A, B, C. It’d be so much more interesting if you said, Hey, this is the type of store we are.
Miriam Bogler (35:20)
Yeah.
Of course. Yeah.
huh.
I don’t know. No, no. Of course. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (35:46)
This is the type of locations we’re in.
Miriam Bogler (35:47)
What processes would you implement here? Yeah.
Jeff Walter (35:50)
Exactly, exactly.
And then see what the team comes up with and then compare it to what we actually do. And I and and then sit there and go, eighty percent of what you came up with is what we actually do. And then you can have the conversation of the twenty percent difference. And it might be, hey, you came up with something much Yeah. Or you know, a a and or, right?
Miriam Bogler (35:54)
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly. Maybe you came up with something better. Yeah.
Jeff Walter (36:19)
These things you came up are better, that’s good to to put up the chain of commands, see if we should update our our process. And on the other hand, it’s like, well, okay, I could see how you arrived at that other thing, but this is why we’re doing it this way, because you you didn’t account for this other thing. And it’s really interesting. And and I’m sorry if I could just but I
Miriam Bogler (36:24)
Exactly.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
No,
your employees are going to be so much more satisfied with their work if it was presented to them that way. Instead of throwing at them, OK, you learn this, you know, I mean, yeah.
Jeff Walter (36:52)
not not just satisfied but but
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Well, not only satisfied, but more com more compliant in the process in the procedure. Because if if they came up with eighty percent of it on their own, it’s it’s not something that’s being dictated to them. It’s it’s something that they they saw the reason they figured out the reason why. Which it’s actually I’m sorry, I’m j I’m getting all excited. Well well, ’cause it’s real it it well, it’s really interesting because
Miriam Bogler (37:03)
Yeah.
Exactly. It sticks.
Mm-hmm.
That’s okay, that’s good.
Jeff Walter (37:25)
I I was I was talking to Mance Morris and he used to work for Disney World and he was talking about what the what Disney does is when they do their training, they they train they they say they proceduralize everything. But when they train you, it’s not just on the what and how. They also train you on the why. And therefore, if if at any point in time the what and how
Miriam Bogler (37:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (37:54)
Is at odds with the why, or if you can think of a think of a better what and how to satisfy the why, there’s like a feedback loop and and and the process improves. But the thing that’s but and so but it was more kind of as we were talking about the training process, it was more traditional, right? Here’s the what and the how and the why, right? and and now, you know, take it from learning to here to the back.
Miriam Bogler (38:01)
you
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (38:23)
And so it becomes proceduralized and and and then it frees up energy for you to to take care of guests. But but but what I love about what you what you just triggered in my head on the project-based learning is we’ll actually take the process and have them do a project-based learning on it. And they’re gonna come up with it and they’re gonna figure out the why. It’s anyway, it’s just it it it almost almost like operationalizes that.
Miriam Bogler (38:25)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Of course.
Jeff Walter (38:51)
I thought
what he was saying that they did was so so powerful to get the why, because usually it’s just the what and how. And you and you don’t have the context of the why, and you don’t have any f natural feedback loop. And and and the project based learning creates the operation creates the learning environment to to get all that to to process all that. Anyway, I think it’s just really fascinating.
Miriam Bogler (38:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Basically,
in project-based learning, the employees, in your case, are going to feel that they are part of the process versus when you tell them, okay, you need to learn this and this or this process or something like that, they feel like they are just passive learners. They are not, they are. So there’s a huge difference here.
Jeff Walter (39:37)
exactly.
And I and I and I think it’s that why to me it’s that why part because if you figured out that we should do this this way, it’s because you and your group had a discussion of why. Wha why are we opening the doors at five to nine instead of quarter to nine, right? Like why because you had that discussion, you know?
Miriam Bogler (39:52)
I don’t know. Yeah.
Yeah, it’s
not just a discussion. It’s the whole struggle about trying to come up with a solution. It’s, they get a problem they need to solve and the whole process, the whole struggle, the whole iteration, all the iterations that they have to go through, the conversations that they have to because they constantly have to talk about things that have been done and, you know, how much they accomplished and all these things, you know.
Jeff Walter (40:07)
Yeah.
Miriam Bogler (40:30)
contribute to understanding the subject better and better and better. Yeah, there’s a huge difference.
Jeff Walter (40:37)
Yeah. Well
and I and you ra you just raised something else that was r that i is interesting too. It’s the struggle. And and I and a lot of people don’t y don’t think it don’t think of it that way. And I like that you used that word because I believe all learning is a struggle because because we all have a map of the universe in our head, some of it in very high definition and some of it in very low definition.
Miriam Bogler (40:44)
Yeah.
in struggle, yeah.
Mm-mm. Yeah.
Jeff Walter (41:06)
And learning is about taking part of that map and remapping it in a higher definition and and and and it and and th that means you have to stop thinking about it the way you used to and start thinking about it in a different way. And that and that’s you know, that’s hard.
Miriam Bogler (41:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you’re not struggling, you’re not learning, basically. That’s the point. When you start struggling, that’s the point when you start learning.
Jeff Walter (41:27)
Right.
Yeah. That’s very that’s
which and and I think doing that in a social environment with other lear other learners, other students, just it helps I I think helps it extraordinarily. Which is which is interesting and and so interesting you know how you were incorporating AI because I’ve I’ve talked to a lot of other folks about incorporating AI into corporate learning and it tends to be
Miriam Bogler (41:40)
Of course. Yeah.
Jeff Walter (42:01)
what I that’s another interesting thing, and and you’ve got a book coming out on this, which we could talk about a little because it’s really interesting because usually when you’re talking about AI in learning, at least in the corporate side, I’m not familiar on the K-12 side, it’s it’s creating a tool to help an individual up you know learn something, acquire some knowledge or develop a skill. Right? And it’s usually
Miriam Bogler (42:05)
No.
huh. huh.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (42:32)
An individual at the individual basis. And what I liked about the prompts that you were talking about there is it was using it in a collaborative with other with other people. And so, you know, and and I I and I and I mentioned the book, it’s the name of your book is Using AI as critical thinking catalyst, which is really interesting. And now when you gave me the when you were talking about
Miriam Bogler (42:33)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (43:01)
project based learning and I’m like, that’s I I could see that in that just in that one little example. So how how how are you envision AI being used as a critical thinking catalyst?
Miriam Bogler (43:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
So by actually serving as a Socratic coach, never giving answers to students, always prompting them, giving them questions. And even if they stumble, then the AI is going to give them other types of questions that will be more tailored to what they detect is the struggle here. And eventually,
leading the student towards coming up with their own whatever they are doing, whether this is writing an essay, you know, I have a Socratic coach, an AI prompt. Usually these prompts are many pages long, you know, they can even be like nine or 10 pages long. And that prompt is basically is trained to tackle any situation that students may stumble on.
and but never give answers. So it’s always questions students only need to answer even if they have no clue about anything. Slowly but surely it will drive them towards the towards you know let’s say if this is an essay writing an essay it will drive them to writing the essay on their own. Just to give you I also have one prompt that basically
help students to learn a language. If you think about it, when you are learning a language in a class, like a second language, many times they give you the grammar, they give you the vocabulary. They do all kinds of things, but very little time is dedicated to actually them conversing, the students actually conversing.
conversing one minute. If you have a classroom of 25 or 30 students, maybe each student talks for about one minute. And we know that this is really the essence. The essence is you have to start feeling comfortable talking to another person in that language. And so what I created is a prompt, is Socratic coach prompt that never gives the student what they need to say in that language, the sentences, how they need to say it.
But it starts a conversation with a student and it kind of, it talks in that language. this is a, you know, if I’m learning Spanish that, you know, that, AI prompt will talk to you Spanish and you have to, and based on your level, you have to come up with the sentences to respond to the AI. And so by doing this constant chat, your chances of learning the language.
are so much better than when you just learned all the grammar and all the vocabulary. I tried to learn Spanish with several softwares and I was not able to learn as much as I’m learning from my conversation with any of these AI tools like ChatGPT or Clocks.
You know, when I put this prompt in and Claude turns out to be a Socratic coach that teaches me a language and basically becomes my partner that I can talk to. It’s like me being able to talk to somebody from Spain, only in Spanish, you know? So I am, and I know that the only language I can discuss it with that person is only Spanish because that’s all they talk. So that forces me.
to learn, to come up with the sentences. Then usually with AI, if I write a sentence that’s not correct, then the AI will respond and write it again for me, but this time with the syntax, correct grammar. I’m not just doing the whole conversation and having to come up with the words and everything.
Jeff Walter (47:28)
Right.
Miriam Bogler (47:35)
but it also corrects me after the fact. So if I’m writing the sentence and the sentence is incorrect, then it will repeat it, but repeated this time in a correct way. So I’m learning from it as well.
Jeff Walter (47:48)
Fair
that a a and you said these prompts are can be like pages and pages long. So so how how does if if I wanted to create a Socratic prompt for something, you know, getting back to our our franchise, opening, closing stores or whatever it is, whatever whatever whatever it is, how how do you
Miriam Bogler (47:53)
Yes, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (48:12)
I’m I’m just in my mind going, How do you come up with that? How do how do you figure that? Like, what process do you go through to come up with a prompt to to create
Miriam Bogler (48:21)
So basically what you need to
do is to chart down the process. So think about it, okay, what’s involved in opening a store? And you’re going to write down all these, whatever it is that’s involved in it. Okay. And then you are starting to write and this is, really have to write it. That’s what I said that I would love to be able to share with you things.
but I cannot, you said that it’s not possible with Riverside, but with Zoom, I could have shown it to you. And basically you just talk in English, like you would talk, know, I’m sure you have written something to chat GPT, find information, okay? So you’re writing in English, but all you have to give to
Jeff Walter (48:48)
Yeah. Unfortunately
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Miriam Bogler (49:13)
AI is the process is what is what is involved in this. Okay. And then and then write it in English. Okay. You need to handle this situation and you need to. So you basically come up with all the situation that the student can encounter. Okay. While trying to open a store. And yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s how it goes. So basically
Jeff Walter (49:19)
Okay.
Okay.
Miriam Bogler (49:44)
And you have to give the prerequisites like you never give any answers. If a student is struggling, then you need to give them additional questions until they finally start to understand or use another angle or something. So you have to tell AI what to do in these situations that they are struggling. But you also have to give it the process that you are trying to deliver.
Jeff Walter (50:06)
Right.
Miriam Bogler (50:12)
And for that purpose, you need to understand the process.
Jeff Walter (50:17)
Very interesting. Very, very interesting. So so you but on so on but on the language thing, the y y y you didn’t give it all of s the entire Spanish grammar and dictionary.
Miriam Bogler (50:33)
No, no,
no, no, no, that AI knows that I don’t need to give it to him. No, I just have to give guidelines about, you know, what, how they need to handle the student and that this has to be a conversation that they shouldn’t give the sentences to the student that they have to inquire about their interests.
Jeff Walter (50:50)
Okay.
Okay.
Miriam Bogler (51:00)
Because usually when you want somebody to talk to you in another language, you better talk to them about something that interests them. If I just told AI, you just talk to them in Spanish, they can talk about whatever. Maybe that doesn’t interest the student. It has to be something that interests the student so they will want to be involved in the conversation and so on. All these things are in the prompt.
Jeff Walter (51:28)
Very, very, very interesting. Very interesting. I’m gonna have to play with that. I think that’s really I think that’s well, I I I think that’s really interesting, a as an approach. And it g and and it it it gets away from it it enhances the critical thinking and and and gets away from the it’s just a big answer machine. Right? And and so
Miriam Bogler (51:30)
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank
Exactly. yeah, that’s
my focus is that, you know, before AI, there were many technologies that were interpreted as threat. The, you know, the calculator was interpreted as a threat at the time. I was teaching programming in school and we had logo programming. I remember my students were doing programming.
And then suddenly came HyperCard and Micro Worlds that actually used the logo programming to create modules that students could use. The programming was built in it, and you could use it for creating a multimedia scene or something like that. And many teachers who were used to using the actual programming said, students will stop thinking. They will not do any more thinking now because there’s no need to do the programming.
Jeff Walter (52:35)
Right.
Miriam Bogler (52:49)
And that wasn’t true because what really happened is that it gave them these built in modules for students who create much more sophisticated multimedia scenes. And so the thinking was shifted to something else, you know, instead of being focused on the programming itself. And so that’s the story with AI. Now, most of the…
articles in Education Week or in any other publication is how teachers think that AI is only training students to cheat and that it basically takes away their critical thinking. And that’s absolutely not true. And yeah, of course, if you’re using AI, if you’re typing in, please give me, please create for me an essay about this and this. Yes, that’s what it’s going to do. It’s cheating. But
If you are using AI in a way that it becomes a Socratic coach, and you create a prompt for the students, and they have to use that prompt and nothing else, then it will develop their critical thinking, not take it away. So it all depends about what is the method that you’re using this new technology with. That makes the difference.
Jeff Walter (54:10)
Yeah, yeah, you know, it’s also interesting just listening to you, it dawns on me that well when we talk about cheating, I you know, say cheating in air quotes, what and it i and and it is you know, there is cheating, but what but the cheating is it’s our it it’s not our method of learning, it’s our method of assessing. And if the method of assessment is, you know, a multiple choice test.
Miriam Bogler (54:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (54:40)
And you have access to the internet, well, I can get the answers to the multiple choice test really easy. I just have to put the a the question in and I’ll get the an I’ll I’ll get the answer. If it’s I’m going you’re going to assess me based on, you know, a five page essay, well, I I can easily you know, and you’re gonna give me time time to do that. you know, away from you know, an unproctored time to do that. Well I I can I can
Miriam Bogler (54:44)
Right.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (55:09)
cheat that assessment. you know, so it’s interesting. It’s it’s it’s almost like you know, we just have to evolve it we don’t have to we don’t have to evolve the well it’s it’s the the it’s cheat it’s it’s it’s we have to evolve the assessing. Right? Like I’m just I’m just thinking of you of of you know like what you just said about the Socratic coach and it’s like
Miriam Bogler (55:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Walter (55:36)
Well that you know, actually if I had that whole conversation, I could take that conversation and then assess it as to whether or not the student finally understood what it is, right?
Miriam Bogler (55:45)
Exactly. That’s the other thing. Yeah.
Any of these assignments that in which the AI Socratic coach cannot give answers, but you can get the output and you can see where the student stumbles. I mean, yeah.
Jeff Walter (56:01)
Right.
Right.
And and then you can assess the conversation for understanding. You know, ba based on the nature of you know, the nature of the questions and and and where the student goes. ‘Cause ’cause it never the thing with the Socratic method is it never ends, right? Like like you can keep investigating, investigating, investigating. But y I can almost I can almost it it it just triggers this whole other thought of
Miriam Bogler (56:08)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, Right, right.
Jeff Walter (56:31)
The the cheating thing is it’s it’s cheating because we have a set of assessment tools that are based on a certain technology, basically pen and paper. and and and and and and now in a digital world with AI, it’s easy to to to cheat a y it that tech that assessment. Yeah.
Miriam Bogler (56:40)
Hmm. Hmm.
Well, the cheating in this case is
basically the teacher assigns an essay. You go to AI, you type in, want you to create an essay for me about this topic. And in a few seconds, AI will generate that essay. And you copy and paste, that’s the cheating here. Okay.
Jeff Walter (57:08)
Yeah, now
Well and but
but here’s the thing, right? The same that could be student A and student B could take that and iterate it a hundred times and fully un you know, in in that in that essay that it was AI generated, go, Well, tell me more about this, reword it this way, do this th like and it it it ends up not being an assessment of their knowledge. Right? Yeah, anyway, it’s just it’s just I never thought about it in that perspective of
I i it’s a i and and and then all of a sudden when you brought in the Socratic coach, I was like, it’s a i actually if you had the conversation with a Socratic coach, you can assess a person’s knowledge based on the questions they’re answering. And it’s just a different way of assessing it. It’s really interesting. It’s really interesting. Well, so Miriam, we’re we’re we’re we’re we’re coming up on our our time here. that was really interesting. So thank. hey,
Miriam Bogler (57:45)
Yeah.
Of course. Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jeff Walter (58:11)
Be before we go, if if if somebody want to if p somebody out there want to get a hold of you, what’s the easiest way to get a hold of you and and
Miriam Bogler (58:21)
So,
you know, they can contact me through my email, miriam at projectpals.com.
Jeff Walter (58:31)
Okay. And and then the other thing too is that I want to mention is you have a Substack newsletter also. So and what’s what’s the name of that?
Miriam Bogler (58:37)
Yes,
Master AI for teaching success.
Jeff Walter (58:44)
And and I would imagine a person could go into Substack, subscribe to that, and and there’d be a way for them to contact you there as well. So okay.
Miriam Bogler (58:49)
Yes.
Exactly, exactly. I also have a website,
projectpals.com, and they can contact me through that too.
Jeff Walter (58:59)
And or you and what
Okay, and we’ll put a link to the website in the in the show notes. So projectpals dot com. So and and any b before we go, any closing thoughts?
Miriam Bogler (59:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So as I said, I think that this is the most revolutionary thing that I’m saying about how the right usage of AI can really change how we learn from what most teachers think that it’s cheating to actually turning it into a tool that develops critical thinking. And that’s really, I think, is very…
I’ll tell you, I just gave a query to Claude and I asked it if, now that I am going to publish the book, I asked it if my methods of using these prompts are being used generally in schools or if this is something new.
And the response that I got that I am ahead of my time. That most schools, that really the question that teachers ask these days about AI is how can I save time? So they are using it for administrative purposes, but not for teaching. And what you are asking, says to me, what you are asking is how can I
develop my students thinking. And there’s a big difference between these two approaches. so, so yeah, so this is still, as I said, not something that being used in schools as much as I would like to. And I hope that that it’s gonna, you know, improve.
Jeff Walter (1:01:11)
Yeah, well I it to to me it’s like to I’ve said this on the show before, but it’s it’s a huge technological revolution. And at first it it overpromises and underdelivers and eventually it changes everything. And you know, I I just like I believe the the industrial revolution changed how we educate our children,
Miriam Bogler (1:01:29)
Yeah.
Jeff Walter (1:01:41)
I I think we’re at the dawn of another revolution. The the the culmination of the information revolution, right? The computer revolution. And i i it it will it will change everything. It’ll take ta but it’ll take a while. It’ll take a lot of it’ll take a lot of practice, it’ll take a lot of experimentation, it will take a lot of and then and then we’ll s we’ll we’ll come upon better ways of doing things, including educate our kids.
Miriam Bogler (1:01:48)
Yeah.
I think
that there’s also a threat that a lot of teachers are afraid that they maybe will take over their jobs. So there’s also that threat that makes them not want to experiment too much with it. So yeah, so we have to overcome that so that we can get to a better place, I think. Pause one second because AI is not going anywhere. I mean, even…
Jeff Walter (1:02:28)
Yeah, I I yeah. Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Miriam Bogler (1:02:34)
Even if you are against it and everything and if you’re afraid and something like that, it’s a better thing to learn it than to completely reject it, I think. That’s my opinion.
Jeff Walter (1:02:45)
Well and and I I I a hundred percent concur and so you know, once you know, once we have a discovery, once we invade invent invent a way of doing things that makes things better, faster, cheaper and it we d we don’t uninvent it as a as you know, and it’s you’re right, it’s not going anywhere. So the question is how can we how can we leverage it?
Miriam Bogler (1:02:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So don’t use it to cheat. Learn a method how you can use this tool to improve thinking, not to train students to cheat, but rather to train them to think. It’s definitely doable.
Jeff Walter (1:03:13)
to the betterment of humanity, right?
Right.
Well and that’s why that’s funny. That’s why I asked that Socratic prompt question, ’cause I’m like, you got me thinking like, hmm, what things can I that I want to learn? And and but also you know, how we incorporate that into into larger learning programs. And I think I think it’s gonna you it’s gonna evolve and it’s gonna be really it’s gonna be a fun ride. It’s gonna be fun to watch. It’s gonna be fun. And and there’ll be mistakes and there’ll be scandals and but in the end I think we’ll be better off for it.
Miriam Bogler (1:03:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Right.
Jeff Walter (1:04:01)
So well Miriam, again, get a hold of you, go to projectpals.com, look up, look you up on Substack at Masterai for Teaching Success, or Miriam at projectpals.com. So all right. Miriam, thank you so much for your time today. Greatly appreciate it.
Miriam Bogler (1:04:12)
Thank you.
That’s right.
Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jeff Walter (1:04:25)
Yep. Hey everybody out there, thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time. Bye bye.
Miriam Bogler (1:04:30)
Bye.